Matt said…

I hear everyone on their preference for longer reviews.  I agree with you that in general a longer review with more detail is more helpful.  However, as we look to engage more people to provide insight into their personal experiences and as we attract more readers we are finding that not everyone has the time or inclination to either write or read the complete review.  Ideally we will be able to design the interface so that it highlights the more complete reviews while still "backfilling" with the shorter reviews. 

Does that make sense to all of you?

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I don't mind the reviews that are a paragraph or so that talks some about just experience... it's the ones that are only a soundbite or a sound bite and one sentence that really don't add much to me.  I don't think it's too much to ask to have people do up at least 4-5 sentences having to do with a product.  Any other sites that take reviews are the same way.    It still allows them to share their opinions yet provides something of use to the consumer searching for information.

Jolie said…
Hi all.

We wanted to get your feedback on a change we are considering....

As you all know, we are dealing with a challenge around ratings/reviews/quick reviews naming. People are kind of confused by ratings & quick reviews and how they are different from regular reviews. They aren't certain what constitutes a rating/quick reviews and how to upgrade it, etc.

We want to clean this up, but we are struggling with the best way to do it. So, we thought we would come to you, our trusty community!

Here is something we are considering... what do you think?

• Make the move to call a review, a review.... No matter what form it takes- short or long, it is a review. Most people on the site don't understand the difference. So, why call it something different? This will make it easier for readers to understand.
  
• Sort the reviews by completeness.... So that the most comprehensive reviews come to the top. However, if reviews with less information get lots of helpful votes, they can move higher up on the page.
  
• Only count certain reviews toward your reputation. In order for a review to count toward your reputation, it must have: a soundbite, a rating, I AM tags, and at least 250 characters of text. So, for example, if you and I both wrote 25 reviews, but yours were ‘complete' and mine weren't, you would have status as Writer 1, but I would not. And, your reviews would appear above mine.
  
• Lastly, we would add a filter to the reviews tab... allowing you to sort by quick reviews. This will allow you to upgrade any review that doesn't count toward your status.

What do you guys think?  Are we crazy?

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I've never been too crazy about the minimalistic Ratings/Quick Reviews thing.  I've done one myself, and it has not had a lot of hits.  Maybe you can consider renaming them to To the Point or something along those lines.

The sorting of reviews by completeness sounds good but I have to ask: Who is going to do the actual sorting?  I'm not worried about my reviews not being considered "complete," since I tend to write somewhat long (some might even say over-long) ones, but is it going to be a human being doing the sorting or is it going to be software?  

The reputation thing seems fair, I suppose.

The filters thing also sounds all right.  I don't foresee any controversies popping up about this feature.

I guess I'm the odd ball out because I believe: "If it's not broke, don't fix it."  I love to write so like many, my reviews are very lengthy.  Therefore, I would have no problem meeting a minimal word requirement to get credit for a review. 

When I posted x amt. of reviews but only got credit for y amt. I inquired with Courtney and found out it was because I forgot to add a tag; I added the tag and it became a review. 

I agree with others who say the really short reviews aren't informative enough.  "I liked this book or I loved this movie" doesn't cut it but on the flipside, that writer is contributing what they want.  I took some suggestions from quick reviews but wrote longer reviews as a result. 

I'm not competing with others for writing rank so if someone gets Writer 4 or PC for single paragraph reviews and I get writer 2 with 91 really long reviews then so be it. 

I try to read a lot and vote on everything I read.  I also try to leave comments to the writer so that they will know that I was one of the ones who read his/her review.  I love reading my various friends and fans reviews just as much as I love writing and seeing my numbers climb.  But in the end--this is just a wonderful place to be a part of and I will adapt to whatever changes come my way.

I like reviews of all lengths because, in my opinion, if you have 100 "ratings" that just give it a star rating and a one liner, that sometimes tells you more than having 5 "reviews".  Why?  Because if 90 ppl out of 100 say this product is 5 stars, I'm going to trust that a bit more than if 3 ppl out of 5 say it. 

Ratings/short reviews/quick reviews/whatever you call them helps to bring in more star ratings for each product.  So I'm all for them.

I like the idea of separating them though, and making it clear to the user which ones are actually reviews and which are one liners (why can we click a one liner if it doesn't go anywhere?) 

Finally, I think about other sites I've been too as an example of something that works.  People can leave a star rating AND a review OR they can just leave a star rating.  Often a product will have "4 stars based on 200 ratings" and underneath it will say "read 50 reviews".  So giving people the opportunity to RATE the product really helps bring more to each product so you really have abetter way to judge if this product is good or not.

Hi, Jolie! 

This was really a fascinating thread and your message explained a lot.  I wish there was some way to "search" for those "ratings" which don't seem to be counting for us.  My list of actual reviews is a few more than what I actually get credit for because some count as "ratings" yet I have looked through most of them and can't see anything missing except that in some I had "pros" listed at the bottom but no "cons".  Could this be making a difference?  I wouldn't mind fixing whatever is wrong on the "rating" ones if only I could find them!  Well, thanks again for explaining so much.  You and Meredith are doing such a great job!  Have a nice weekend and incidentally I really enjoyed that Halloween picture!

As explained to me by Courtney: You don't have to list pros and cons in a review to get credit for it.  I "think" the pros and cons are going to be coming from others who do the same review and don't want to duplicate your review.  YOUR pros and cons will generally come in the body of your review.  I, however, do add some of my own pros and cons so that they will jump out at the reader.  If you have ANY ratings you would need to check all of your reviews and see which one may be missing one of the following: rating, soundbite, or not enough words and we're not sure what that count is.  I have been keeping a personal list of all the reviews I submit and so far my review count and my list are the same.  I hope this helps a little.

I sent Meredith an email before and she had them pull out what my ratings were.  Turns out they were ALL missing I Am tags!  I couldn't believe how many times I forgot to add them.

You don't need Pros AND Cons, just Pros OR Cons.

vivasuzi said…

I like reviews of all lengths because, in my opinion, if you have 100 "ratings" that just give it a star rating and a one liner, that sometimes tells you more than having 5 "reviews".  Why?  Because if 90 ppl out of 100 say this product is 5 stars, I'm going to trust that a bit more than if 3 ppl out of 5 say it. 

Ratings/short reviews/quick reviews/whatever you call them helps to bring in more star ratings for each product.  So I'm all for them.

I like the idea of separating them though, and making it clear to the user which ones are actually reviews and which are one liners (why can we click a one liner if it doesn't go anywhere?) 

Finally, I think about other sites I've been too as an example of something that works.  People can leave a star rating AND a review OR they can just leave a star rating.  Often a product will have "4 stars based on 200 ratings" and underneath it will say "read 50 reviews".  So giving people the opportunity to RATE the product really helps bring more to each product so you really have abetter way to judge if this product is good or not.

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You make a good point.  I hadn't thought about it like this.  I agree -- It would be less confusing if the one-liners weren't clickable since the link doesn't go anywhere. 

I think this sounds like a very logical way to streamline the review process.

You don't even need the Pros OR Cons, just the soundbite, rating and tags.  I have done a ton of reviews and I probably haven't done pros or cons on half and I have 101 reviews to my credit.  I only add pros and/or cons if I am doing a review that has already been done.  Like I said before, I think most people are going to put their pros and/or cons in the body of their review.  

That's interesting, I thought it was required for a review. 

I like pros/cons though, it allows the user to sort reviews based on what people liked or didn't like.  Often I'm reading a hotel review, for example, and I'll see a few ppl choose "rooms are dirty".  I'll filter for those reviews to see what they said further.  I encourage everyone to use pros and cons for that reason :) 

I think "real" reviews should require I AM tags, pros/cons, title, and over 500 CHARACTERS (not words). That would be about 100 words. Those would count toward people's review count.

 I think the other things (ratings/quick reviews) should not be counted toward anyone's rep.

Here's where I get confused. I will go to a product and see that are 4 "reviews" and there are three thumbs up and one thumbs down. I will read the reviews and the real reviews all have the thumbs up. Then I will get to a no word rating with a "This stinks"  title and a thumbs down. I think it really hurts the rating system to allow people to rate things without at least explaining why something stinks (They can muster a line or two).

I think we need reviews of all lengths and I have found short reviews to be helpful to back up the longer reviews' data. But I really don't like empty reviews with just a title and a rating or reviews with three words. I think anyone, even the busiest person on earth, can manage a couple of lines of text. They took the time to go to the listing and rate it, how hard is it to write a few words about that rating? Even: "This mascara flakes and clumps. It's also too expensive," helps me to understand why it stinks.

If we have ratings that are wordless, I don't think their ratings and thumbs up/down should be folded into the product or service's overall rate. I just don't think it's fair to the product or service.

I understand people not wanting to bother with tags, pros and cons, or verbose reviews. But I really believe people can muster up a FEW words to back up what they are rating. As you can tell, I am not a fan at all of the wordless reviews/ratings/quick reviews. I put no credence at all into them and I feel they are not helpful. If anything, they're confusing. If we, the long time members, wonder where the review is when we get to a rating, what do visitors think?

I definitely agree that the ratings/quick reviews should be at the bottom of all reviews.

The filtering and other things mentioned are all good ideas.

EDIT: No lie. I just read this after doing something else and I thought, hmm, that person's a jerk. AND IT WAS ME. I don't have my pic so I didn't know who wrote it. Haha. I thought I'd share. I'm just cranky. Sorry.

I agree with you 100%.  We both like to write so we don't have a problelm with word count.  Shoot, I don't even know how to be brief on comments.  But I think someone should at least tell us why the did or didn't like a product/service, etc. 

I get really frrustrated when I'm trying to research an item/service and click on a review and there's nothing there.  I am so tempted to vote no but they wouldn't know that they got a negative vote and I personally, would get my feelings hurt if I knew someone gave me a negative vote. 

I'm beginning to see whose reviews I can trust and I read my friends reviews daily and then I'll click on to another review of the same product.  Sometimes I'll go back to my own reviews and read what others have written on that same product too.

I love your edit--sounds like you and I both are having slip-ups right now ;+)   

I've already explained above, but even a star rating and a one-liner means something to me.  We are more likely to get a lot of users and opinions if we allow for all types of ratings and/or reviews.

I'm definitely not a fan of the ratings or the quick reviews and most likely will never do either. I am seeing so many of these quick reviews that don't even have a brand name. They say "I don't know" or they talk about a product they simply saw in a catalog and don't even own. It appears that the quality of reviews has gone down since the start of these quick reviews. I hope that the focus isn't on quanity instead of quality. I read one that gave an unknown make and model, 1 star and it said "I don't own a crock pot". There are a lot like that one out there! I see them all the time lately and have been marking them inappropriate.   

I did the review on my digital camera and stove as the result of a "quick" review but by the time I wrote my review, there was nothing quick or short about it.  I used the quick review as a suggestion tool for other items.  Like I plan on reviewing my MP3 player at some point but it won't be a quickie.  And I own 3 different style crock-pots so if I ever review them they wouldn't be quick reviews either. 

I'm very pleased with the way my stats look so I guess to each his own. 

You guys are hard core. :)! That is why we love you!!!!!!!!!

We really appreciate the feedback. We will try and put our heads around the issue some more and come up with a compromise that works for both readers and our valued writers like you. I can promise you this-- we will always value your thoughtful reviews more than just  rating-- that is for sure!

I dont know exactly where are going to land, so I will ask for your forgiveness upfront! hehehhehehe.

If you have an explicit recommendaiton, for dealing with:
1. Readers who dont care what something is called
2. Us valuing ratings versus reviews separately
3. Us giving you a way to upgrade your reviews
please feel free to email me directly. Our plan is to roll something out this month!

I'm okay with it the way it is but don't think someone should get credit for a review toward the count that goes toward a writer's level if they lack x amt. of words and by that I mean enough to give a why they did or didn't like the product.  Even if you say it has to be 100 words NOT characters long.  At least the other readers will get some information. 

 I just hit Writer 3 and it wouldn't be fair to me and all the others who produce quality work to see someone else climb the ranks and basically have nothing but 5 stars to their credit.  

I've seen some reviews here that have NO words; just a title and star rating.  What's with that?  DUH?

OldHippie said…
I've seen some reviews here that have NO words; just a title and star rating.  What's with that?  DUH?

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That is called a rating - one of the things Viewpoints is trying to fix. You can rate anything -just give it stars. It won't count toward climbing up the ladder and will show up as a rating on your home page. Jo

Some people really don't want to review, but I think having access to give a star rating is valuable (as I already explained above).

The easier you make it for people to write a review OR leave a star rating, the more likely new members will join.  If you start making it so they cannot leave a star rating at all unless they write 100 words (as some are suggesting), you'll end up with more people who decide the site is not for them.

Allow both, and separate them in some way so they count differently, and then I think you have the best of both worlds.

vivasuzi said…
I've already explained above, but even a star rating and a one-liner means something to me.  We are more likely to get a lot of users and opinions if we allow for all types of ratings and/or reviews.

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I, on the other hand, don't get anything out of simple star ratings or one-liners.  Maybe it's because I've read way too many such one-liners at Amazon that I've developed such a strong dislike to the Ratings, but I really, really, don't want to see the site swamped by such bon mots  as "This movie sux/rox."

Fardreamer said…

vivasuzi said…
I've already explained above, but even a star rating and a one-liner means something to me.  We are more likely to get a lot of users and opinions if we allow for all types of ratings and/or reviews.

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I, on the other hand, don't get anything out of simple star ratings or one-liners.  Maybe it's because I've read way too many such one-liners at Amazon that I've developed such a strong dislike to the Ratings, but I really, really, don't want to see the site swamped by such bon mots  as "This movie sux/rox."

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I completely agree.

We don't want to make it hard for new or busy writers but we do want the content to be helpful in some small way. I don't think a "This movie sux" is helpful and I would hate to see the trend going toward more blank reviews or three word reviews.

I guess VP has to balance helpfulness with ease of use here. I wouldn't want that job. lol.

Sort the reviews by completeness.... So that the most comprehensive reviews come to the top. However, if reviews with less information get lots of helpful votes, they can move higher up on the page.

I think clarifying what is considered a complete review is important for standardization and providing a mechanism to sort reviews by status.  However, once an agreed upon standard is met for a complete review, a long review is not necessarily more informative than a short one.  Some people are very verbose and have a great gift of words while others have a talent at being very succinct and say volumes with few words.

Who wants my job right now?! hehehhehehe.

We will always value a quality review over the one liners... and the one liners are not contributing the same way to your reputation. So, no worries there!

I agree, in principle, with your views on long reviews,  Some people, particularly those who have had journalism backgrounds, can get away with writing long reviews and not bore the living daylights out of a reader,  Others, who have probably been conditioned to "write long for the sake of length" by people who don't have any editorial experience, tend to add lists of ingredients or describe every possible use or function of a product without getting to the point.

 Here, as in any consumer review site, talent will always rise to the top.  What worries me, frankly, is having to cut through a thicket of not-very-insightful "this movie sux" musings,

We're hearing ya on the increased required character count. Here's where we think we are headed at this point:

What is the difference between a "quick review" and a "review"?

A review requires a sound bite, star rating, I Am tags and at least 500 characters of text. Reviews are for sharing a detailed rundown of your experience and opinion. Reviews contribute to your writer status so the more you write, the more your reputation grows.

A quick review only requires a star rating and a sound bite. Quick reviews allow you to add a meaningful blurb and rating without writing extra details. Quick reviews do not count toward writer status.

You will be able to find your combined "review" and "quick review" count on your "My Home" page under review total. Also, you will be able to access your quick reviews and reviews (filtered separately) from the "Reviews" section on your "My Home" page. Quick reviews can be upgraded to reviews at any time by adding the additional required fields and text using the edit button.

As Jolie mentioned earlier in this thread... we will always value the quality reviews over the one liner quick reviews by sorting them differently and allowing only complete reviews to count toward writer status.

Also, we will add messaging after publishing any contribution so you will know if you supplied all the fields necessary to qualify as a full review.

We will add an "official" description of quick reviews vs. reviews on the FAQ page once we finalize everything.

Again, thanks to everyone for voicing your opinion here! Now, let's go find out who our next President will be!!! The anticipation is maxing out here at the office!!!

PattyTherre said…
I think "real" reviews should require I AM tags, pros/cons, title, and over 500 CHARACTERS (not words). That would be about 100 words. Those would count toward people's review count.

 I think the other things (ratings/quick reviews) should not be counted toward anyone's rep.

Here's where I get confused. I will go to a product and see that are 4 "reviews" and there are three thumbs up and one thumbs down. I will read the reviews and the real reviews all have the thumbs up. Then I will get to a no word rating with a "This stinks"  title and a thumbs down. I think it really hurts the rating system to allow people to rate things without at least explaining why something stinks (They can muster a line or two).

I think we need reviews of all lengths and I have found short reviews to be helpful to back up the longer reviews' data. But I really don't like empty reviews with just a title and a rating or reviews with three words. I think anyone, even the busiest person on earth, can manage a couple of lines of text. They took the time to go to the listing and rate it, how hard is it to write a few words about that rating? Even: "This mascara flakes and clumps. It's also too expensive," helps me to understand why it stinks.

If we have ratings that are wordless, I don't think their ratings and thumbs up/down should be folded into the product or service's overall rate. I just don't think it's fair to the product or service.

I understand people not wanting to bother with tags, pros and cons, or verbose reviews. But I really believe people can muster up a FEW words to back up what they are rating. As you can tell, I am not a fan at all of the wordless reviews/ratings/quick reviews. I put no credence at all into them and I feel they are not helpful. If anything, they're confusing. If we, the long time members, wonder where the review is when we get to a rating, what do visitors think?

I definitely agree that the ratings/quick reviews should be at the bottom of all reviews.

The filtering and other things mentioned are all good ideas.

EDIT: No lie. I just read this after doing something else and I thought, hmm, that person's a jerk. AND IT WAS ME. I don't have my pic so I didn't know who wrote it. Haha. I thought I'd share. I'm just cranky. Sorry.

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I agree with everything you said, Patty!

I think quick reviews/ratings should not be added toward a rep. Also I can't give a positive vote on an empty review or a review with no helpful info. It's tempting to click on "no" because it was not helpful. So I abstain from clicking. If it's a product I've been researching because I'm considering purchasing it, I sometimes ask for info.

Short reviews can be good if they have useful info. I haven't always been able to write lengthy reviews. I am working on some longer ones though.

I want all my reviews to count toward my rep. So I'm fine with what we've been doing. I will not be doing any ratings/quickie reviews.  

The new ideas are interesting to me.  This whole board is interesting... I was a bit confused a bit about the filtering but I think I've got it straightened out now.   : )

Ditto with LadyMagic--I write too much to get just a rating or a review but I'm glad they're putting the memo that it's ready to be published as a review because sometimes I have forgotten to put a tag.

I am also tempted to vote no on a rating without anything but my heart says don't be mean so I just go on to the next review.  Sometimes I will still leave a comment so the "author" knows I saw the soundbite.  Some of the soundbites are pretty good and self-explanatory, to a point.  

I think a lot of you need to start looking at soundbites differently.  They aren't meant as standalone "this tells me everything" reviews.  They are meant as something that you consider as part of a whole collection.  I don't rate soundbite only reviews at all, but I do think they help in the whole scheme of things and they help answer the question of "how many people love or hate this product?"

Maybe more people would be happier with soundbite only things if they were on a separate tabs from reviews.  Then we could just browse through them real quick without having to click them all to open them up.