"Different strokes for different folks, right?"

Why weaken it. You made a solid point and then you defuse it. Why?

GeorgeChabot said…
"Different strokes for different folks, right?"

Why weaken it. You made a solid point and then you defuse it. Why?

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Oh, drat. I didn't think I was defusing my point. 

Still, there are Viewpoints readers (and writers) who may not feel that the way I review or what I prefer in the reviews I read/rate/comment on is the only way. 

I'm still of the opinion that a good review should:

• Contain the relevant details of the specific product.
• If it's a movie review, some plot summary is necessary, as well as some mention of who's in the movie....(This doesn't mean padding reviews with a cast list, but the cast is worth mentioning in some form in the body of the review)
• If it's a book review, same thing but only if it covers the first third of a work of fiction.  Non-fiction history books can go a bit farther, but not excessively so
• It should be as long - or short - as it needs to be. 

As you know from working together on another site that does rank order things I agree your movie reviews are very helpful. I would not agree somebody that left out the stuff you generally named (without a dang good reason) would be OK or very helpful for me if I were bent on buying said video.

In the future I am pretty sure VP will have to rank  order things to maintain its market niche. If everybody's take on anything is equal - NOT MY OPINION BUT SEEMS TO BE VP POLICY - one bad recommendation will send readers away never to return.  I therefore believe there has to be a level of trust generated from the expert reviewers per topic and not imposed by some nebulous power from above.  YMMV but I believe this. :>

GeorgeChabot said…
As you know from working together on another site that does rank order things I agree your movie reviews are very helpful. I would not agree somebody that left out the stuff you generally named (without a dang good reason) would be OK or very helpful for me if I were bent on buying said video.

In the future I am pretty sure VP will have to rank  order things to maintain its market niche. If everybody's take on anything is equal - NOT MY OPINION BUT SEEMS TO BE VP POLICY - one bad recommendation will send readers away never to return.  I therefore believe there has to be a level of trust generated from the expert reviewers per topic and not imposed by some nebulous power from above.  YMMV but I believe this. :>

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What I find somewhat confusing is this...how can a movie review not refer even sparingly to plot summary, cast, or director and still be helpful? 

Maybe I have a built-in bias to including some plot summary, information about who wrote and directed the movie, and who the major stars are within the body of a review because (a) that's the style I was taught in journalism classes from 10th grade till I dropped out of college or (b) that's how they're done by pros in the print and broadcast media, but I don't find bare-bones reviews that skip those details to be helpful.  It's fairly easy for anyone with a keyboard to say "Oh, I think The Dark  Knight  is the best Batman adaptation ever," but to me that's just a headline or blurb and not a review.

While I don't want Viewpoints to become a clone of the "other site" where we both still work together, I agree that the site will probably need to rank-order stuff if it is going to be taken seriously by readers.  I'm no elitist...heck, my choice of products-to-review proves that....but yeah, the readers' trust vis a vis Viewpoints depends a great deal on the quality of the reviews.

 

 

Well I do put plot in my reviews, I guess I think of VP this way.  Many people, like my mom, when she writes her opinion on a site after buying a product, she writes it assuming people who are reading already know what the product or movie is.  She doesn't write for anything like VP, and only reviews things rarely.  I believe many people here are like that.  A lot like to share their opinion but are not thinking they have to tell us anything really about the product.

That is not to say you and I cannot include more.  I'm just saying, if someone just writes pure opinion, it can be helpful to me without the facts.  My favorite thing about this site was always that various types of "reviews" are accepted.

And as far as things needing to be "ranked" I totally disagree with that.  We already sort reviews by H votes.  If a review is not all-inclusive in your opinion, don't give it an H.  Simple as that.  Anyway, I come here to research a Hotel and I instantly sort by DATE.  I don't care who got the most votes or the highest ranking or is a so-called "expert" (a word which means crap to me).  i want to read reviews by date b/c the most recent are usually the best to read for a hotel or travel.  If it's not a hotel, I will come in and sort by Star rating b/c I'm most interested in seeing who rated it high and who rated it low, once again, I could care less about Helpful votes.

Overall, I welcome short reviews and often wish I had the control to write less.  B/c when I read reviews I often skim/skip anything too long b/c I get bored.  I want to know the overall opinion of as many ppl as possible, and the best way to get that is through dozens of short and sweet reviews.  I think VP's "niche" is that they treat everyone equally.  No one is going to run away because they read a short review that didn't mention something that you consider necessary.

BTW - People here are hired to write summaries on the top of a review page for that very reason - to cover the one sentance or two plot and the stars.  Reviews can certainly cover it if they want, but I will never believe any of this is a MUST.

Also, FYI - Most people do not get paid to write here.  So why enforce standards on people who simply enjoy sharing their opinion?  Takes the joy right out of it.

vivasuzi said…

BTW - People here are hired to write summaries on the top of a review page for that very reason - to cover the one sentance or two plot and the stars.  Reviews can certainly cover it if they want, but I will never believe any of this is a MUST.

Also, FYI - Most people do not get paid to write here.  So why enforce standards on people who simply enjoy sharing their opinion?  Takes the joy right out of it.

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I don't see it as enforcing any standards, viva. Remember, this is not "the other site" that does demand far more than necessary.

The thing is, we have different philosophies and writing backgrounds. I suppose that means we won't always agree on what makes a review tick or what works for a content-based opinion website.  But I hope you know that even if we don't see eye to eye, I do value your views.

Fardreamer said…

GeorgeChabot said…
As you know from working together on another site that does rank order things I agree your movie reviews are very helpful. I would not agree somebody that left out the stuff you generally named (without a dang good reason) would be OK or very helpful for me if I were bent on buying said video.

In the future I am pretty sure VP will have to rank  order things to maintain its market niche. If everybody's take on anything is equal - NOT MY OPINION BUT SEEMS TO BE VP POLICY - one bad recommendation will send readers away never to return.  I therefore believe there has to be a level of trust generated from the expert reviewers per topic and not imposed by some nebulous power from above.  YMMV but I believe this. :>

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What I find somewhat confusing is this...how can a movie review not refer even sparingly to plot summary, cast, or director and still be helpful? 

Maybe I have a built-in bias to including some plot summary, information about who wrote and directed the movie, and who the major stars are within the body of a review because (a) that's the style I was taught in journalism classes from 10th grade till I dropped out of college or (b) that's how they're done by pros in the print and broadcast media, but I don't find bare-bones reviews that skip those details to be helpful.  It's fairly easy for anyone with a keyboard to say "Oh, I think The Dark  Knight  is the best Batman adaptation ever," but to me that's just a headline or blurb and not a review.

While I don't want Viewpoints to become a clone of the "other site" where we both still work together, I agree that the site will probably need to rank-order stuff if it is going to be taken seriously by readers.  I'm no elitist...heck, my choice of products-to-review proves that....but yeah, the readers' trust vis a vis Viewpoints depends a great deal on the quality of the reviews.

 

 

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I also like the variety of reviews here on VP. Many people do want all the details, but others may need very little information to form an opinion about a product. Take, for example, a movie, since you're the expert on those. One reviewer might write a lot of details with all the information you mentioned above. Another writer might write a rating that says something like. "Obscene language, sexually explicit." Well, if I were looking for a movie for my children to watch, either of those would tell me the information I'd want to know. However, someone who is a movie expert and wants details won't get a lot out of a 4-liner. I think a lot of it is a personality thing. It's kind of like when I mess up on the computer over here. My husband's a computer technician and wants all the details--why did I choose "save as" instead of "save," why did I have more than one document with the same name, why did I have multiple folders with a file by the same name, don't I want everything organized and neat within my folders, etc. Perhaps all I care about at the moment is that I would like to have the computer up and running so I can re-type my entire document before 4 a.m.

I've done both ratings and reviews....I did one rating of a film I didn't want to waste time sweating over the craft of choosing the right words to convey my opinion.  I kept it...well, like a rating, with no plot summary or any of the things I normally include in my reviews.

 According to my stats, it hasn't done all that well, hits-wise, even though it was concise, contained why I thought it was bad, and was sparse beyond imagination....

 

Hi Fardreamer, I don't know if ratings get hits.  Usually if you click a rating it takes you to the main product review page, and you usually don't actually ever open the individual rating.  I believe ratings are meant to be something that can be read without opening them up.

vivasuzi said…
Hi Fardreamer, I don't know if ratings get hits.  Usually if you click a rating it takes you to the main product review page, and you usually don't actually ever open the individual rating.  I believe ratings are meant to be something that can be read without opening them up.

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For some reason, I can see how many hits (or few hits, as in my case) my lonely rating gets. In my Stats page, it has a grand total of 1 hit over the past 30 days. 

I try to keep reviews as short as I can, but depending on the product or service, this is often very difficult to do. It is easy to write a short beer review or food review, but other things are not so easy. Some books, for example, are so complex and so antagonizing, I feel I have to comment on many different things and I wind up saying more than I should. Still, even with books, I try to cut my reviews down to size; down to 1,000 words or less.

I often try to remove repetitive or redundant material I may have written in "first-draft" mode in an unconscious effort to "get my point across," but for the most part, I let the review carry me with it rather than "force" it to a jarring stop in a "Oh my God, it's too long" panic.

 I just did a movie review at "that other site" where I write regularly, and it's 642 words long, not counting the headline, Pros and Cons, and the Bottom Line summary.

I find writing a 650 word review really tough. I guess I'm just wordy. I have tried to cut down the length of my reviews here and was doing well and they slowly are creeping up to more words again. My last review could have been complete with about 300 words. But it is 1400. I added a ton of extra info that I did tell the reader that I was going to do and they could skip that part or read on if they were interested in more info.

I really don't think what I wrote was too long for what I was trying to say but I probably should have made it more of an essay/advice piece/whatever rather than incorporate the info into a review.

I always admire people who can write a really informative, concise review and give me the info I want without making me feel like they were just rushing though to get it done. So far, I am not doing so well at keeping my length down here but will reattempt with my next review. Whatever that will be...

I really wonder if how wordy we are in reviews reflects how wordy we are in real life. I know, in my case, you can see my personality and my "wordiness" in most reviews and would not be surprised when you met me that I was the same way in person.

Well Patty, I agree, it's hard for us wordy people :)  I have managed to make the length of reviews match the product more though.  Like - if it's a granola bar, I can general keep it pretty short.  But if it's a camera (or my new cell phone which I gotta review once I learn how to use it) it is really hard to keep it short.  It is, however, possible for me to keep some short by trying reallly reallly hard.  The review I started this thread about was a hotel/resort/all-inclusive.  It was super long b/c there is just so much to tell about.  Unlike a hotel that is just a hotel, this one has restaurants, activities, etc etc.  It was very long and I decided to leave it.  I had bold headers so I figured ppl could jump around and find out.  Plus, much of the stuff I covered were things I wondered about when booking that I did not find anywhere online, so I hoped it would help someone out there who was having the same problem :)

I even have trouble keeping my posts short on this board!! haha  It totally reflects our real lives if you ask me.  I talk really fast though and I think it's b/c I have a lot to say - I try to get it all out quick before someone gets annoyed :)

For example, if someone in real life asks me if I liked the restaurant I ate at last night, I'll go on about everything saying the service, the price, everything.  If I ask the same person how they liked the restaurant they ate at, they will often say "oh i got the pizza and it was delicious" and that's it!  Those are the people that come on here and write short reviews, that's just how they are.

Also, I think the "closer" emotionally a reviewer is to a product, such as a favorite movie or hobby-related items, the more he/she will want to say, whereas if it's something like dog food or a so-so movie, the more concise the review is.

Of course, there are exceptions, but that's what I've noticed.

 

I agree fardreamer.  You know, sometimes when I review I am not just reviewing... I am actually trying really hard to convince people to see it my way - I feel like a sales person!  A lot of people out there don't review that way, they just say what they liked and what they didn't and that's the end of it.  However for some reason I feel like I want to change minds and alter lives :)  Ok, that's a little extreme!  But at the least I love to hear that someone was convinced and tried a product, movie, etc and loved it b/c of my review.

vivasuzi said…
I agree fardreamer.  You know, sometimes when I review I am not just reviewing... I am actually trying really hard to convince people to see it my way - I feel like a sales person!  A lot of people out there don't review that way, they just say what they liked and what they didn't and that's the end of it.  However for some reason I feel like I want to change minds and alter lives :)  Ok, that's a little extreme!  But at the least I love to hear that someone was convinced and tried a product, movie, etc and loved it b/c of my review.

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I think, at some primal level, that's what I attempt to do in some of my reviews: to at least get a reader to reconsider a preconceived notion of a product I either like or don't like.  In essence, a good review is part factual information, part exercise in persuasive writing.

I'm curious - How do you react when someone (politely) says, "Well, I read your review and I went to see (insert name of movie here) and I didn't like it...."?

Oh that's happened a lot before.  Usually people who say that are very polite about it so it doesn't bother me.  I just say we all have our own opinions :) 

What gets me upset is if anyone ever responds negatively like "you're wrong, this product sucks" because how can they tell me I'm wrong if I like it?  Not at VP, but at other places, I've had instances where someone really acted like I must be dumb for enjoying a certain product.  To me, those ppl need to get a life!  It's fine if you disagree with my opinion, but don't make me feel like my opinion is wrong or dumb.

vivasuzi said…

Oh that's happened a lot before.  Usually people who say that are very polite about it so it doesn't bother me.  I just say we all have our own opinions :) 

What gets me upset is if anyone ever responds negatively like "you're wrong, this product sucks" because how can they tell me I'm wrong if I like it?  Not at VP, but at other places, I've had instances where someone really acted like I must be dumb for enjoying a certain product.  To me, those ppl need to get a life!  It's fine if you disagree with my opinion, but don't make me feel like my opinion is wrong or dumb.

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Where it was really bad (for me) was at Amazon.  I did a review of Star Wars - Episode I: The Phantom Menace back in '03 that went against the grain of the "it sucks" majority mindset and within days it had been clobbered by "not helpful" votes.

At other sites, I've had my fair share of run-ins with people who write mean comments just for the heck of getting a rise out of reviewers.  On a list - not a review, but a list, this is one such "lurker's" attempt to ruin my day:

Left off batteries not included, so you get a not helpful!

I have had at least three or four very nasty comments saying I don't know how to use a product or that I am not "qualified" to review a product (??) because people had different opinions than I did. They were really mean comments. I think I know how to put nail polish on and I do know how to apply foundation. I only own 400 kinds. Sheesh.

I do understand that people have different opinions and I respect that but, if they don't agree with my experience, they should write their own review and stop assuming I don't know how to use the stuff. I am always polite and always say that they should write a review because differing opinions will help consumers to make choices. I have read MANY reviews of products I own that I didn't agree with as far as how they performed. But I have never, ever been nasty to anyone about it.

I don't understand why people feel the need to bash when they don't have to. Simply saying they had a much better (or worse) experience with the product is enough. Implying the reviewer isn't qualified or doesn't know how to use a simple product is rude and I won't stoop to the level of the commenter and respond in a rude manner back.

PattyTherre said…
I have had at least three or four very nasty comments saying I don't know how to use a product or that I am not "qualified" to review a product (??) because people had different opinions than I did. They were really mean comments. I think I know how to put nail polish on and I do know how to apply foundation. I only own 400 kinds. Sheesh.

I do understand that people have different opinions and I respect that but, if they don't agree with my experience, they should write their own review and stop assuming I don't know how to use the stuff. I am always polite and always say that they should write a review because differing opinions will help consumers to make choices. I have read MANY reviews of products I own that I didn't agree with as far as how they performed. But I have never, ever been nasty to anyone about it.

I don't understand why people feel the need to bash when they don't have to. Simply saying they had a much better (or worse) experience with the product is enough. Implying the reviewer isn't qualified or doesn't know how to use a simple product is rude and I won't stoop to the level of the commenter and respond in a rude manner back.

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In one rather amusing comment, someone told me that I shouldn't have downrated a car just because I didn't know how to use a manual transmission. Considering that I learned to drive on manual transmission cars more than 35 years ago and presently own four manual transmission cars, I'm pretty confident with my stick shift skills. Like you, I thanked them for their comment and politely suggested they write their own review.

There are many reasons why people bash others in comments. One is anonymity on the Internet. Jerks and bullies can say what they want and it's virtually impossible to track them down. (Not that you'd want to!) In other cases, people don't like it when their sacred cow is gored, which is what I believe was the case with my car review. (The guy probably owned the same model and was annoyed that I gave the car a poor review, as that might reduce the value of his car.) Other people just think they're being funny. There's a whole bunch of people out there who enjoy making life miserable for others. I used to work with a woman who deliberately sabotaged things just so she could sit back and enjoy the chaos and accusations -- no one suspected it was her for months, and by then she had one foot out the door anyway.

There are all kinds out there...

--Bob

PattyTherre said…
I don't understand why people feel the need to bash when they don't have to. Simply saying they had a much better (or worse) experience with the product is enough. Implying the reviewer isn't qualified or doesn't know how to use a simple product is rude and I won't stoop to the level of the commenter and respond in a rude manner back.

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I don't understand it either!  Why do some people get so rilled up just b/c they disagree with you.  There have been times when I disagreed a lot with someone's rating on a movie, for example, and all I would do is comment "while I liked it, oh well, we all have our own opinions :) " or something like that.  Or I wouldn't comment at all.

People who are rude - it's almost like they think they have to defend the product if you hated it and they liked it.  I agree also with Bob above, people feel almost insulted if you hated something they loved and feel like they have to tell you what an idiot you are.  Others have gotten rude with me if i liked something they did not like as if I am not allowed to enjoy it because they had a bad experience with it.  Oh well!!

Sorry Patty, I don't think you have enough experience with Makeup to write an informed review :-D

vivasuzi said…

PattyTherre said…
I don't understand why people feel the need to bash when they don't have to. Simply saying they had a much better (or worse) experience with the product is enough. Implying the reviewer isn't qualified or doesn't know how to use a simple product is rude and I won't stoop to the level of the commenter and respond in a rude manner back.

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I don't understand it either!  Why do some people get so rilled up just b/c they disagree with you.  There have been times when I disagreed a lot with someone's rating on a movie, for example, and all I would do is comment "while I liked it, oh well, we all have our own opinions :) " or something like that.  Or I wouldn't comment at all.

People who are rude - it's almost like they think they have to defend the product if you hated it and they liked it.  I agree also with Bob above, people feel almost insulted if you hated something they loved and feel like they have to tell you what an idiot you are.  Others have gotten rude with me if i liked something they did not like as if I am not allowed to enjoy it because they had a bad experience with it.  Oh well!!

Sorry Patty, I don't think you have enough experience with Makeup to write an informed review :-D

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Call me naive - I've been called worse - but I am still surprised that there are people who are so blinded by their passion for or against a certain product that they will retaliate against any reviewer whose opinion runs counter to their own.

On Amazon, the nasty negative campaign against some of my reviews got so aggravating that I refuse, to this day, to write a review of Star Wars movies or TV shows produced after Attack of the Clones.  I am aware that there's a large faction of Star Wars fans that hate the Prequels for many reasons - Anakin being a cute kid of nine in the first movie, Jar Jar Binks, all the politics, the supposedly bad acting, etc., etc. Fine. They hate The Phantom Menace. Ditto Attack of the Clones. And there are things about all three Prequels that I find at the very least questionable.  But, I liked the prequels.  It might not sit well with other people, but I enjoy them.  

Fardreamer, about movies, there sure are fanatics and I just say you gotta ignore them :)  For example, went to see the 2nd or 3rd Matrix with my husband (then boyfriend) and his roommate and his roommates geeky friend.  We came out saying it was good, and his roommates friend was just ripping it apart for all these little things.

I say, it's fine if it's not up to your standards, but not all of us are going to hate it.  Some of us actually enjoy the flashiness and unrealistic aspects of it :)  Some of us are willing to let plot lines fall through a bit if the movie is exciting enough :)  I saw Star Wars 1 and 2 and liked them both, but I've had more dedicated people tell me how horrible they are.  Oh well!!

Oh, btw, in these intances, I think it comes down to this.  Fanatics spent their lives dreaming of Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or Spiderman, whatever.  Then when a movie is made for the masses, that doesn't properly reflect what they feel Star Wars is, they get mad.  It's almost as if they don't want "the masses" to get into their hobby, especially if the movie doesn't represent their hobby the way they'd want it to.

vivasuzi said…

Fardreamer, about movies, there sure are fanatics and I just say you gotta ignore them :)  For example, went to see the 2nd or 3rd Matrix with my husband (then boyfriend) and his roommate and his roommates geeky friend.  We came out saying it was good, and his roommates friend was just ripping it apart for all these little things.

I say, it's fine if it's not up to your standards, but not all of us are going to hate it.  Some of us actually enjoy the flashiness and unrealistic aspects of it :)  Some of us are willing to let plot lines fall through a bit if the movie is exciting enough :)  I saw Star Wars 1 and 2 and liked them both, but I've had more dedicated people tell me how horrible they are.  Oh well!!

Oh, btw, in these intances, I think it comes down to this.  Fanatics spent their lives dreaming of Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or Spiderman, whatever.  Then when a movie is made for the masses, that doesn't properly reflect what they feel Star Wars is, they get mad.  It's almost as if they don't want "the masses" to get into their hobby, especially if the movie doesn't represent their hobby the way they'd want it to.

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Viva,

The funny thing about the whole true-fan vs. casual viewer brouhaha regarding Star Wars and the prequels is that I'm one of the "1977" generation that saw the first movie (which is now the fourth movie) and became a fanatic.  (My reviews, ha ha, are a dead giveaway!)

What I think happened in the case of the Prequels - and this is just a theory that might not explain the whole problem - is that the 16-year-gap between Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace fostered a certain environment in which many fans had created their own imaginary notions of how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader because George Lucas had left the "origins" story vague.  The only data points he gave out about this were:

1. Palpatine took control of the galaxy by political fraud and was aided by greedy corporate entities.

2. Anakin had been a powerful Jedi, albeit one with much anger, the best starpilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior who was seduced by the dark side.

3. Though never explained in the Classic Trilogy, the basics of Obi-Wan and Anakin's duel that resulted in Skywalker's transition into Man-in-the-Suit Vader were mentioned in the Jedi novel and even earlier.

Obviously, the lack of an official story regarding the Prequel era then allowed fans to spin their own takes on the origins tale.  I won't bore you with them all, but one theory that was bandied about was that Obi-Wan was a clone.  Why? The reason was the name Obi-Wan, which was taken to really be OB1 (Oh Bee One) like R2-D2 or C-3PO.

The Prequel bashers also dislike the fact that Jar Jar Binks exists, that the first one was too political, that the acting was not natural and wooden, that the kid who played Anakin was a lousy choice, and so on and so forth. 

Maybe what happened was even more basic than that.  Most of the grousers were between 10 and 15 in 1977, and the new trilogy came out when they were in their late 30s, which maybe goes to the heart of the impatience with Jar Jar's comic antics.  Like you say, they lived for so long wanting for new movies to be made, raising the bar so darned high that when they did get their wish, they were in for a let down.