ChrisJarmick said…

Faith is an extension of what we do constantly--though you may not call it faith.  I'm typing away on my keyboard, I have the faith and belief that the buttons will work, the process will result in a communication, my brain will talk to my fingers and so on and so forth.

When I think of something, I have to believe I can do it.  If I decide I can gather together some people and put on a reading even though I can't offer money and don't know who will show up....I have to have faith that it can and will be done even though there are so many factors that could stop it from happening and so many factors that will not make it a success.

A pure faith isn't a means to an end however.  It just is something you have decided to believe.  God, another concept, yourself, a loved one.

Trust and faith are interconnected aren't they? 

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It's fine to have (trust) and faith in a Devine Being, but I ask again, to what end?  And if "pure faith" isn't a means to an end, then what is the point to the belief?  Why decide to believe in God in the first place?  Just because?     

A lot has been written about this.  

You open yourself to something larger, a compassionate higher power of your own (God, Goddess, love, or something nameless that you don't necessarily define at all).  When you do this, you gain strength.  You know you are not alone. 

You put distance between yourself and something negative to view it from a higher ground--get out from yourself.   The Buddhists call it your monkey mind which creates a small insular cycle that you can't break out of so you realize there's something greater than the emotion of the moment.  You stop hurting others and yourself and seek to become more expanded.

Emotions play very specifically on each of us.  A great example of this is jealousy.  A bitter jealousy plays on self-esteem which cycles downward into depression and hopelessness.  

So you want to cycle upward with a higher purpose.  GOD could be seen as a catch-all phrase meaning many things.   Your higher purpose might be love... not of yourself.. but of say your family.   That you bellieve is a higher purpose.

This gives you a higher purpose.  A bellieve in a higher purpose is important to maintaining your sanity.

You may not need GOD but we must have a way to get over ourselves and away from the downward cycle.. any downward cycle.

Some decide that things they can't quite explain with logical thinking is the work of GOD.  Intuition is from God, many believe.

Meditation and prayer is important and it has been proven through real world measurments of the brain that changes occur through meditation and prayer.

You don't have to believe in any God, but there are other things that happen that can't be explained in any conventional sense.  God is an easy explanation perhaps and certainly an illogical one.

Some sense of and use of spirituality actually affects the brain and mind, transporting us to another place.

There is no downside to this.  You elevate yourself and your thinking, come at a problem or a depression from a different place.

Hope that gives you something to chew on, think about it, consider.

TheBard said…

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It's fine to have (trust) and faith in a Devine Being, but I ask again, to what end?  And if "pure faith" isn't a means to an end, then what is the point to the belief?  Why decide to believe in God in the first place?  Just because?     

 

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I personally find it mentally pleasing to think that there is a God, even though I'm a deist. I went through a harsh realization once that all of my fervent prayers were not going anywhere and totally lost faith. Then I started pondering how "something" came from "nothing" and, while contemplating the impossible complexity of physical life, taking nothing for granted (such as DNA being the answer to how a living being takes shape), I eventually came to believe that there has to be some guidance going on behind the scenes. Nature itself would never have bothered to form gases (again, from nothing), explode them, let them cool into planets with a very convenient - thoroughly accidental - central star/sun, then slowly but surely bring forth a myriad of life forms.

There were some critical challenges I simply could not find a scientific answer for, such as:

How does DNA know what to do with the matter it attaches?

How does it seperate useful matter from useless matter? How does it KNOW to?

Where did that matter come from?

How did an entire universe filled with countless planets and stars form from what - logically - had to have been zero matter and zero space?

I'm not trying to convince you there's a God, and I certainly don't think there's a God the way we think of "Him", in human form, bearded, white robe, speaking in a deep, profound voice, kind of ticked-off, etc.. But I do think that the very existence of ANYTHING defies simple logic and I find some sense of divine guidance necessary at the end of the day.

So, TheBard, having said all that, I still don't think believing in God is of any real meaningful equity. Beyond its ability to please us, which does carry equity. And I think we should recognize and give credit for being here. We certainly didn't have to be at all.

Will you fly away to Heaven after your body can't be bothered with you any more? I doubt it. That's where my faith ends, and I have no problem with that. Afterall, I've not been here for billions of years longer than the few I'll have been here. It never seemed to have bothered me any.   

I don't look at "God" as a reflection of my divine, omnipotent Entity, rather as a force that exists on a far different realm and which, tired of looking out and seeing nothing for so long, naturally felt compelled to put something there.

Chris-

Very well put.  I agree with you insofar as needing and even benefiting from believe in something larger than self.  For me it is taking care of my family, being a provider, being a man my children (all girls) can look up to and use as an example of the kind of man they want to attract.  That for me is enough to fulfill my life.   As you allude to, we all must find this higher plane for ourselves, and it appears as though you have!

Rustaddsflavor-

Also well put.   Very valid points.  For the longest time I held on to my (fading) belief in the God of religion, then later in life realized that such a being didn't really exist, because my logical mind would allow for it.  Now that does not preclude my belief in a force, Mother Nature perhaps, that could and probably does explain the enormous diversity and complexity of life on this planet, and most likely throughout the universe.  

But the One God of religious incarnation is dead for me; he was a mere creation of man's fertile searching, ignorant mind, much as Oden, Hercules, Zeus, Ra, Venus, Loki, Athena, Horus, Poseidon, Atlas, Romulus, Remus, Hades, and the countless other Gods and Goddesses were before the One God ruled them all!.

Vincent          

Yes, Vincent, your love of your family giving you that higher sense of value is not in the strictest term logical and it has no finite, easy to quantify and break down worth in terms of things we can touch.    That's the things that is--for you and I would hope many others of great value, and importance.   You can give many reasons why this sense of family is in you but after all the questions are thrown at you it still comes to... that's the way it is.  That is who you are and who you will always be--you won't be questioning it.

I too have this strong bond with family (and have 3 daughters also).

Someone might say you don't HAVE to be this way...nobody is actually forcing you to bbe this way  and many are not this way.

Of course you absolutely HAVE to be this way, it is the most important thing to you, this is beyond regular logical thinking and thought.  You need to sacrifice for them, you do it.  Period.

Much easier to grasp doing this for family then for some unknown to be sure.

And for some they believe, perhaps need to believe this type of devotion to family, particularly in its purest most selfless area is part of HIs/Her(GOD) plan.  The faith and belief in that higher power gives them strength, focus, confidence and if you have teenagers you can use all the help you can get (God only knows).   (yes, that's meant a bit flippantly).

You don't need to believe that something else gives you this... just your family values are in and of themselves enough of a purpose to keep your eye on the ball (so to speak).

Ah what a wonderful world it would be were everyone capable of such devotion to family.  So many 'problems' would  dissolve.

So now we've uncovered the meaning of life (family) AND proven we can discuss sensitive subjects without resorting to crude verbal assaults against each other.

Sounds like evolution is alive and well, afterall. I didn't even get the chance to say, "Damn Cadillac drivers think they rule the world."

WTF

You actually did just get to say that!!!   Course for all their arrogance.. Cadillac is on life support.....

Now how about seat kickers and cell phone texters in movie theaters.. grrrr..

Hmmm, the human race with all its deverse ideas and concepts about belief and faith, well, I lost faith when it came to God when I was a kid, Seeing the things that people in this world have done to others just in the name of faith hasn't changed my ideas of God being all powerful. I asked someone once, if God was so powerful why does he let bad things happen and ended up answering my own question later on when I didn't like what that person said.

Its said that there can't be suffering without have compassion, I wonder, where is the compassion that were all surposed to have.

I think the power of God comes from people themselves. We choose our own roads to walk down and many of those roads aren't the best. When go to church because were taught when we were younger that we need too. We need to be socal creatures. We need to learn and teach, but, have we forgot to listen?

When it comes to God for me, He's not in my heart any more, Because I told him I didn't love him any more. I am saying this, because its time to close this discussion out before it gets carried away. I shouldn't started it and I'm sorry I even said anything now. Religion is a very touchy subject. People will never agree or disagree to agree. LOL...But, I got what i wanted from this. I'll start a discussion sometime that isn't so conterversey.

Thank you all for the hits.......Have a good day.

AnnaBanana said…

It's okay if you just can't believe there is a God.  Faith is a gift, not a conscious decision. 

 

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Every time I see a tree in bloom, or a bird chirping, or a rainbow...I thank God.  Who else could've CREATED all of this?  Remember - as journalist Ernie Pyle stated, "There are no atheists in foxholes."  Get yourself into a stressful situation, such as war...you'll start praying real quick.

True OldHippie, true ~ and I have told my mother that saying, "there are no Athiests on their deathbeds".

Actually, smblomker ~ my mother would agree with you.  You are entitled to feel that way. 

Here's my little opinion ~ "God" is "Dog" spelled barkwards for a reason and vice versa.

OldHippie said…

AnnaBanana said…

It's okay if you just can't believe there is a God.  Faith is a gift, not a conscious decision. 

 

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Every time I see a tree in bloom, or a bird chirping, or a rainbow...I thank God.  Who else could've CREATED all of this?  Remember - as journalist Ernie Pyle stated, "There are no atheists in foxholes."  Get yourself into a stressful situation, such as war...you'll start praying real quick.

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Thanks, Buddy!  I feel the way you do but I am grateful for that faith.  Not everyone apparently is able to believe and life is not easy for someone like that.

OldHippie said…

AnnaBanana said…

It's okay if you just can't believe there is a God.  Faith is a gift, not a conscious decision. 

 

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Every time I see a tree in bloom, or a bird chirping, or a rainbow...I thank God.  Who else could've CREATED all of this?  Remember - as journalist Ernie Pyle stated, "There are no atheists in foxholes."  Get yourself into a stressful situation, such as war...you'll start praying real quick.

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I reject that notion wholesale, because it espouses the notion that disbelieve in God is cursory and convenient; my decision was neither.  I have been is situation on a submarine akin to being fired at in a "foxhole" and I did not prey, I did not utter God's name even though death had come calling. 

Just because WE don't completely understand the beginnings of life doesn't mean that it was engineered by some all knowing, all powerful being invented in the mind of ancient man.  The Theory of Evolution points us in another more plausible explanation for the chirping bids, blooming trees, and flowing seas.

I have enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. I have especially enjoyed reading the many varied thoughts and feelings and I have appreciated the fact that most of the posts have been cordial and respectful of others. I agree with AnnaBanana that faith is a gift. Some people have tremendous faith insomuch that their faith has become unshakable. Others are still experimenting with faith.

Personally, I have always believed in a Heavenly Father. I think I was born believing. That belief has given my life meaning, purpose and direction. It has helped define who I am, what I stand for and where I place my trust. It has made me a better person, a better daughter, a better Mother, wife and friend.

I realize that someone who does not believe in the Lord can not begin to understand it. I get that, but I have had too many experiences in my life that reinforce my faith and beliefs to ever deny them. That said, I know that God exists. I have let him in to my heart and in to my life. Do I know who created him? No. Does that matter to my faith and belief in Him? No. I have the faith that one day I will know and understand. In the meantime, I am content to know that He is there if ever I need him.

Meri said…

I have enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. I have especially enjoyed reading the many varied thoughts and feelings and I have appreciated the fact that most of the posts have been cordial and respectful of others. I agree with AnnaBanana that faith is a gift. Some people have tremendous faith insomuch that their faith has become unshakable. Others are still experimenting with faith.

Personally, I have always believed in a Heavenly Father. I think I was born believing. That belief has given my life meaning, purpose and direction. It has helped define who I am, what I stand for and where I place my trust. It has made me a better person, a better daughter, a better Mother, wife and friend.

I realize that someone who does not believe in the Lord can not begin to understand it. I get that, but I have had too many experiences in my life that reinforce my faith and beliefs to ever deny them. That said, I know that God exists. I have let him in to my heart and in to my life. Do I know who created him? No. Does that matter to my faith and belief in Him? No. I have the faith that one day I will know and understand. In the meantime, I am content to know that He is there if ever I need him.

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I could not have said it any better. I really do think that faith is either there or it isn't. I come from a religious mother and a very non religious father. I have every reason NOT to believe God exists after seeing what happened to my poor mother and later, my father. But my faith was never shaken. It wasn't because anyone taught me this because they didn't. I was never pushed into any religion and, indeed, heard all the reasons why I shouldn't believe from my father. They did make sense. But still, my faith remained and I know it always will.

I don't want to make others believe. You either do or you don't. I respect everyone regardless of their religious beliefs and am just content knowing I have someone to turn to in my darkest hour. If, in the end I was wrong, faith made my life better and more comforting so there were no negatives to my beliefs.

Starting two on the same topic would be called "abusing the system" and should have pts deducted :)

PattyTherre said…

You get 10 points for starting a discussion. I think starting two on the same topic is unnecessary.

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