Help & Feedback Discussion Board

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:50:52 GMT

vivasuzi said…
Fardreamer, about movies, there sure are fanatics and I just say you gotta ignore them :) For example, went to see the 2nd or 3rd Matrix with my husband (then boyfriend) and his roommate and his roommates geeky friend. We came out saying it was good, and his roommates friend was just ripping it apart for all these little things.
I say, it's fine if it's not up to your standards, but not all of us are going to hate it. Some of us actually enjoy the flashiness and unrealistic aspects of it :) Some of us are willing to let plot lines fall through a bit if the movie is exciting enough :) I saw Star Wars 1 and 2 and liked them both, but I've had more dedicated people tell me how horrible they are. Oh well!!
Oh, btw, in these intances, I think it comes down to this. Fanatics spent their lives dreaming of Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or Spiderman, whatever. Then when a movie is made for the masses, that doesn't properly reflect what they feel Star Wars is, they get mad. It's almost as if they don't want "the masses" to get into their hobby, especially if the movie doesn't represent their hobby the way they'd want it to.

Viva,

The funny thing about the whole true-fan vs. casual viewer brouhaha regarding Star Wars and the prequels is that I'm one of the "1977" generation that saw the first movie (which is now the fourth movie) and became a fanatic. (My reviews, ha ha, are a dead giveaway!)

What I think happened in the case of the Prequels - and this is just a theory that might not explain the whole problem - is that the 16-year-gap between Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace fostered a certain environment in which many fans had created their own imaginary notions of how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader because George Lucas had left the "origins" story vague. The only data points he gave out about this were:

1. Palpatine took control of the galaxy by political fraud and was aided by greedy corporate entities.

2. Anakin had been a powerful Jedi, albeit one with much anger, the best starpilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior who was seduced by the dark side.

3. Though never explained in the Classic Trilogy, the basics of Obi-Wan and Anakin's duel that resulted in Skywalker's transition into Man-in-the-Suit Vader were mentioned in the Jedi novel and even earlier.

Obviously, the lack of an official story regarding the Prequel era then allowed fans to spin their own takes on the origins tale. I won't bore you with them all, but one theory that was bandied about was that Obi-Wan was a clone. Why? The reason was the name Obi-Wan, which was taken to really be OB1 (Oh Bee One) like R2-D2 or C-3PO.

The Prequel bashers also dislike the fact that Jar Jar Binks exists, that the first one was too political, that the acting was not natural and wooden, that the kid who played Anakin was a lousy choice, and so on and so forth.

Maybe what happened was even more basic than that. Most of the grousers were between 10 and 15 in 1977, and the new trilogy came out when they were in their late 30s, which maybe goes to the heart of the impatience with Jar Jar's comic antics. Like you say, they lived for so long wanting for new movies to be made, raising the bar so darned high that when they did get their wish, they were in for a let down.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:08:38 GMT

Fardreamer, about movies, there sure are fanatics and I just say you gotta ignore them :) For example, went to see the 2nd or 3rd Matrix with my husband (then boyfriend) and his roommate and his roommates geeky friend. We came out saying it was good, and his roommates friend was just ripping it apart for all these little things.

I say, it's fine if it's not up to your standards, but not all of us are going to hate it. Some of us actually enjoy the flashiness and unrealistic aspects of it :) Some of us are willing to let plot lines fall through a bit if the movie is exciting enough :) I saw Star Wars 1 and 2 and liked them both, but I've had more dedicated people tell me how horrible they are. Oh well!!

Oh, btw, in these intances, I think it comes down to this. Fanatics spent their lives dreaming of Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or Spiderman, whatever. Then when a movie is made for the masses, that doesn't properly reflect what they feel Star Wars is, they get mad. It's almost as if they don't want "the masses" to get into their hobby, especially if the movie doesn't represent their hobby the way they'd want it to.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 04:38:51 GMT

vivasuzi said…
PattyTherre said…
I don't understand why people feel the need to bash when they don't have to. Simply saying they had a much better (or worse) experience with the product is enough. Implying the reviewer isn't qualified or doesn't know how to use a simple product is rude and I won't stoop to the level of the commenter and respond in a rude manner back.
I don't understand it either! Why do some people get so rilled up just b/c they disagree with you. There have been times when I disagreed a lot with someone's rating on a movie, for example, and all I would do is comment "while I liked it, oh well, we all have our own opinions :) " or something like that. Or I wouldn't comment at all.
People who are rude - it's almost like they think they have to defend the product if you hated it and they liked it. I agree also with Bob above, people feel almost insulted if you hated something they loved and feel like they have to tell you what an idiot you are. Others have gotten rude with me if i liked something they did not like as if I am not allowed to enjoy it because they had a bad experience with it. Oh well!!
Sorry Patty, I don't think you have enough experience with Makeup to write an informed review :-D

Call me naive - I've been called worse - but I am still surprised that there are people who are so blinded by their passion for or against a certain product that they will retaliate against any reviewer whose opinion runs counter to their own.

On Amazon, the nasty negative campaign against some of my reviews got so aggravating that I refuse, to this day, to write a review of Star Wars movies or TV shows produced after Attack of the Clones. I am aware that there's a large faction of Star Wars fans that hate the Prequels for many reasons - Anakin being a cute kid of nine in the first movie, Jar Jar Binks, all the politics, the supposedly bad acting, etc., etc. Fine. They hate The Phantom Menace. Ditto Attack of the Clones. And there are things about all three Prequels that I find at the very least questionable. But, I liked the prequels. It might not sit well with other people, but I enjoy them.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 23:57:26 GMT

PattyTherre said…
I don't understand why people feel the need to bash when they don't have to. Simply saying they had a much better (or worse) experience with the product is enough. Implying the reviewer isn't qualified or doesn't know how to use a simple product is rude and I won't stoop to the level of the commenter and respond in a rude manner back.

I don't understand it either! Why do some people get so rilled up just b/c they disagree with you. There have been times when I disagreed a lot with someone's rating on a movie, for example, and all I would do is comment "while I liked it, oh well, we all have our own opinions :) " or something like that. Or I wouldn't comment at all.

People who are rude - it's almost like they think they have to defend the product if you hated it and they liked it. I agree also with Bob above, people feel almost insulted if you hated something they loved and feel like they have to tell you what an idiot you are. Others have gotten rude with me if i liked something they did not like as if I am not allowed to enjoy it because they had a bad experience with it. Oh well!!

Sorry Patty, I don't think you have enough experience with Makeup to write an informed review :-D

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

bkovacs — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 23:48:59 GMT

PattyTherre said…
I have had at least three or four very nasty comments saying I don't know how to use a product or that I am not "qualified" to review a product (??) because people had different opinions than I did. They were really mean comments. I think I know how to put nail polish on and I do know how to apply foundation. I only own 400 kinds. Sheesh.

I do understand that people have different opinions and I respect that but, if they don't agree with my experience, they should write their own review and stop assuming I don't know how to use the stuff. I am always polite and always say that they should write a review because differing opinions will help consumers to make choices. I have read MANY reviews of products I own that I didn't agree with as far as how they performed. But I have never, ever been nasty to anyone about it.

I don't understand why people feel the need to bash when they don't have to. Simply saying they had a much better (or worse) experience with the product is enough. Implying the reviewer isn't qualified or doesn't know how to use a simple product is rude and I won't stoop to the level of the commenter and respond in a rude manner back.

In one rather amusing comment, someone told me that I shouldn't have downrated a car just because I didn't know how to use a manual transmission. Considering that I learned to drive on manual transmission cars more than 35 years ago and presently own four manual transmission cars, I'm pretty confident with my stick shift skills. Like you, I thanked them for their comment and politely suggested they write their own review.

There are many reasons why people bash others in comments. One is anonymity on the Internet. Jerks and bullies can say what they want and it's virtually impossible to track them down. (Not that you'd want to!) In other cases, people don't like it when their sacred cow is gored, which is what I believe was the case with my car review. (The guy probably owned the same model and was annoyed that I gave the car a poor review, as that might reduce the value of his car.) Other people just think they're being funny. There's a whole bunch of people out there who enjoy making life miserable for others. I used to work with a woman who deliberately sabotaged things just so she could sit back and enjoy the chaos and accusations -- no one suspected it was her for months, and by then she had one foot out the door anyway.

There are all kinds out there...

--Bob

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

PattyTherre — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 05:21:00 GMT

I have had at least three or four very nasty comments saying I don't know how to use a product or that I am not "qualified" to review a product (??) because people had different opinions than I did. They were really mean comments. I think I know how to put nail polish on and I do know how to apply foundation. I only own 400 kinds. Sheesh.

I do understand that people have different opinions and I respect that but, if they don't agree with my experience, they should write their own review and stop assuming I don't know how to use the stuff. I am always polite and always say that they should write a review because differing opinions will help consumers to make choices. I have read MANY reviews of products I own that I didn't agree with as far as how they performed. But I have never, ever been nasty to anyone about it.

I don't understand why people feel the need to bash when they don't have to. Simply saying they had a much better (or worse) experience with the product is enough. Implying the reviewer isn't qualified or doesn't know how to use a simple product is rude and I won't stoop to the level of the commenter and respond in a rude manner back.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 04:43:53 GMT

vivasuzi said…
Oh that's happened a lot before. Usually people who say that are very polite about it so it doesn't bother me. I just say we all have our own opinions :)
What gets me upset is if anyone ever responds negatively like "you're wrong, this product sucks" because how can they tell me I'm wrong if I like it? Not at VP, but at other places, I've had instances where someone really acted like I must be dumb for enjoying a certain product. To me, those ppl need to get a life! It's fine if you disagree with my opinion, but don't make me feel like my opinion is wrong or dumb.

Where it was really bad (for me) was at Amazon. I did a review of Star Wars - Episode I: The Phantom Menace back in '03 that went against the grain of the "it sucks" majority mindset and within days it had been clobbered by "not helpful" votes.

At other sites, I've had my fair share of run-ins with people who write mean comments just for the heck of getting a rise out of reviewers. On a list - not a review, but a list, this is one such "lurker's" attempt to ruin my day:

Left off batteries not included, so you get a not helpful!

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 00:25:46 GMT

Oh that's happened a lot before. Usually people who say that are very polite about it so it doesn't bother me. I just say we all have our own opinions :)

What gets me upset is if anyone ever responds negatively like "you're wrong, this product sucks" because how can they tell me I'm wrong if I like it? Not at VP, but at other places, I've had instances where someone really acted like I must be dumb for enjoying a certain product. To me, those ppl need to get a life! It's fine if you disagree with my opinion, but don't make me feel like my opinion is wrong or dumb.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 16:16:25 GMT

vivasuzi said…
I agree fardreamer. You know, sometimes when I review I am not just reviewing... I am actually trying really hard to convince people to see it my way - I feel like a sales person! A lot of people out there don't review that way, they just say what they liked and what they didn't and that's the end of it. However for some reason I feel like I want to change minds and alter lives :) Ok, that's a little extreme! But at the least I love to hear that someone was convinced and tried a product, movie, etc and loved it b/c of my review.

I think, at some primal level, that's what I attempt to do in some of my reviews: to at least get a reader to reconsider a preconceived notion of a product I either like or don't like. In essence, a good review is part factual information, part exercise in persuasive writing.

I'm curious - How do you react when someone (politely) says, "Well, I read your review and I went to see (insert name of movie here) and I didn't like it...."?

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 01:21:34 GMT

I agree fardreamer. You know, sometimes when I review I am not just reviewing... I am actually trying really hard to convince people to see it my way - I feel like a sales person! A lot of people out there don't review that way, they just say what they liked and what they didn't and that's the end of it. However for some reason I feel like I want to change minds and alter lives :) Ok, that's a little extreme! But at the least I love to hear that someone was convinced and tried a product, movie, etc and loved it b/c of my review.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:24:23 GMT

Also, I think the "closer" emotionally a reviewer is to a product, such as a favorite movie or hobby-related items, the more he/she will want to say, whereas if it's something like dog food or a so-so movie, the more concise the review is.

Of course, there are exceptions, but that's what I've noticed.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:20:00 GMT

Well Patty, I agree, it's hard for us wordy people :) I have managed to make the length of reviews match the product more though. Like - if it's a granola bar, I can general keep it pretty short. But if it's a camera (or my new cell phone which I gotta review once I learn how to use it) it is really hard to keep it short. It is, however, possible for me to keep some short by trying reallly reallly hard. The review I started this thread about was a hotel/resort/all-inclusive. It was super long b/c there is just so much to tell about. Unlike a hotel that is just a hotel, this one has restaurants, activities, etc etc. It was very long and I decided to leave it. I had bold headers so I figured ppl could jump around and find out. Plus, much of the stuff I covered were things I wondered about when booking that I did not find anywhere online, so I hoped it would help someone out there who was having the same problem :)

I even have trouble keeping my posts short on this board!! haha It totally reflects our real lives if you ask me. I talk really fast though and I think it's b/c I have a lot to say - I try to get it all out quick before someone gets annoyed :)

For example, if someone in real life asks me if I liked the restaurant I ate at last night, I'll go on about everything saying the service, the price, everything. If I ask the same person how they liked the restaurant they ate at, they will often say "oh i got the pizza and it was delicious" and that's it! Those are the people that come on here and write short reviews, that's just how they are.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

PattyTherre — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:42:21 GMT

I find writing a 650 word review really tough. I guess I'm just wordy. I have tried to cut down the length of my reviews here and was doing well and they slowly are creeping up to more words again. My last review could have been complete with about 300 words. But it is 1400. I added a ton of extra info that I did tell the reader that I was going to do and they could skip that part or read on if they were interested in more info.

I really don't think what I wrote was too long for what I was trying to say but I probably should have made it more of an essay/advice piece/whatever rather than incorporate the info into a review.

I always admire people who can write a really informative, concise review and give me the info I want without making me feel like they were just rushing though to get it done. So far, I am not doing so well at keeping my length down here but will reattempt with my next review. Whatever that will be...

I really wonder if how wordy we are in reviews reflects how wordy we are in real life. I know, in my case, you can see my personality and my "wordiness" in most reviews and would not be surprised when you met me that I was the same way in person.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:16:24 GMT

I often try to remove repetitive or redundant material I may have written in "first-draft" mode in an unconscious effort to "get my point across," but for the most part, I let the review carry me with it rather than "force" it to a jarring stop in a "Oh my God, it's too long" panic.

I just did a movie review at "that other site" where I write regularly, and it's 642 words long, not counting the headline, Pros and Cons, and the Bottom Line summary.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Bryan-Carey — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:10:38 GMT

I try to keep reviews as short as I can, but depending on the product or service, this is often very difficult to do. It is easy to write a short beer review or food review, but other things are not so easy. Some books, for example, are so complex and so antagonizing, I feel I have to comment on many different things and I wind up saying more than I should. Still, even with books, I try to cut my reviews down to size; down to 1,000 words or less.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:47:27 GMT

vivasuzi said…
Hi Fardreamer, I don't know if ratings get hits. Usually if you click a rating it takes you to the main product review page, and you usually don't actually ever open the individual rating. I believe ratings are meant to be something that can be read without opening them up.

For some reason, I can see how many hits (or few hits, as in my case) my lonely rating gets. In my Stats page, it has a grand total of 1 hit over the past 30 days.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:20:02 GMT

Hi Fardreamer, I don't know if ratings get hits. Usually if you click a rating it takes you to the main product review page, and you usually don't actually ever open the individual rating. I believe ratings are meant to be something that can be read without opening them up.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 06:23:58 GMT

I've done both ratings and reviews....I did one rating of a film I didn't want to waste time sweating over the craft of choosing the right words to convey my opinion. I kept it...well, like a rating, with no plot summary or any of the things I normally include in my reviews.

According to my stats, it hasn't done all that well, hits-wise, even though it was concise, contained why I thought it was bad, and was sparse beyond imagination....

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Katrena — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 05:21:29 GMT

Fardreamer said…
GeorgeChabot said…
As you know from working together on another site that does rank order things I agree your movie reviews are very helpful. I would not agree somebody that left out the stuff you generally named (without a dang good reason) would be OK or very helpful for me if I were bent on buying said video.

In the future I am pretty sure VP will have to rank order things to maintain its market niche. If everybody's take on anything is equal - NOT MY OPINION BUT SEEMS TO BE VP POLICY - one bad recommendation will send readers away never to return. I therefore believe there has to be a level of trust generated from the expert reviewers per topic and not imposed by some nebulous power from above. YMMV but I believe this. :>
What I find somewhat confusing is this...how can a movie review not refer even sparingly to plot summary, cast, or director and still be helpful?
Maybe I have a built-in bias to including some plot summary, information about who wrote and directed the movie, and who the major stars are within the body of a review because (a) that's the style I was taught in journalism classes from 10th grade till I dropped out of college or (b) that's how they're done by pros in the print and broadcast media, but I don't find bare-bones reviews that skip those details to be helpful. It's fairly easy for anyone with a keyboard to say "Oh, I think The Dark Knight is the best Batman adaptation ever," but to me that's just a headline or blurb and not a review.
While I don't want Viewpoints to become a clone of the "other site" where we both still work together, I agree that the site will probably need to rank-order stuff if it is going to be taken seriously by readers. I'm no elitist...heck, my choice of products-to-review proves that....but yeah, the readers' trust vis a vis Viewpoints depends a great deal on the quality of the reviews.

I also like the variety of reviews here on VP. Many people do want all the details, but others may need very little information to form an opinion about a product. Take, for example, a movie, since you're the expert on those. One reviewer might write a lot of details with all the information you mentioned above. Another writer might write a rating that says something like. "Obscene language, sexually explicit." Well, if I were looking for a movie for my children to watch, either of those would tell me the information I'd want to know. However, someone who is a movie expert and wants details won't get a lot out of a 4-liner. I think a lot of it is a personality thing. It's kind of like when I mess up on the computer over here. My husband's a computer technician and wants all the details--why did I choose "save as" instead of "save," why did I have more than one document with the same name, why did I have multiple folders with a file by the same name, don't I want everything organized and neat within my folders, etc. Perhaps all I care about at the moment is that I would like to have the computer up and running so I can re-type my entire document before 4 a.m.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 04:41:34 GMT

vivasuzi said…
BTW - People here are hired to write summaries on the top of a review page for that very reason - to cover the one sentance or two plot and the stars. Reviews can certainly cover it if they want, but I will never believe any of this is a MUST.
Also, FYI - Most people do not get paid to write here. So why enforce standards on people who simply enjoy sharing their opinion? Takes the joy right out of it.

I don't see it as enforcing any standards, viva. Remember, this is not "the other site" that does demand far more than necessary.

The thing is, we have different philosophies and writing backgrounds. I suppose that means we won't always agree on what makes a review tick or what works for a content-based opinion website. But I hope you know that even if we don't see eye to eye, I do value your views.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:22:55 GMT

BTW - People here are hired to write summaries on the top of a review page for that very reason - to cover the one sentance or two plot and the stars. Reviews can certainly cover it if they want, but I will never believe any of this is a MUST.

Also, FYI - Most people do not get paid to write here. So why enforce standards on people who simply enjoy sharing their opinion? Takes the joy right out of it.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:03:24 GMT

Well I do put plot in my reviews, I guess I think of VP this way. Many people, like my mom, when she writes her opinion on a site after buying a product, she writes it assuming people who are reading already know what the product or movie is. She doesn't write for anything like VP, and only reviews things rarely. I believe many people here are like that. A lot like to share their opinion but are not thinking they have to tell us anything really about the product.

That is not to say you and I cannot include more. I'm just saying, if someone just writes pure opinion, it can be helpful to me without the facts. My favorite thing about this site was always that various types of "reviews" are accepted.

And as far as things needing to be "ranked" I totally disagree with that. We already sort reviews by H votes. If a review is not all-inclusive in your opinion, don't give it an H. Simple as that. Anyway, I come here to research a Hotel and I instantly sort by DATE. I don't care who got the most votes or the highest ranking or is a so-called "expert" (a word which means crap to me). i want to read reviews by date b/c the most recent are usually the best to read for a hotel or travel. If it's not a hotel, I will come in and sort by Star rating b/c I'm most interested in seeing who rated it high and who rated it low, once again, I could care less about Helpful votes.

Overall, I welcome short reviews and often wish I had the control to write less. B/c when I read reviews I often skim/skip anything too long b/c I get bored. I want to know the overall opinion of as many ppl as possible, and the best way to get that is through dozens of short and sweet reviews. I think VP's "niche" is that they treat everyone equally. No one is going to run away because they read a short review that didn't mention something that you consider necessary.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:42:37 GMT

GeorgeChabot said…
As you know from working together on another site that does rank order things I agree your movie reviews are very helpful. I would not agree somebody that left out the stuff you generally named (without a dang good reason) would be OK or very helpful for me if I were bent on buying said video.

In the future I am pretty sure VP will have to rank order things to maintain its market niche. If everybody's take on anything is equal - NOT MY OPINION BUT SEEMS TO BE VP POLICY - one bad recommendation will send readers away never to return. I therefore believe there has to be a level of trust generated from the expert reviewers per topic and not imposed by some nebulous power from above. YMMV but I believe this. :>

What I find somewhat confusing is this...how can a movie review not refer even sparingly to plot summary, cast, or director and still be helpful?

Maybe I have a built-in bias to including some plot summary, information about who wrote and directed the movie, and who the major stars are within the body of a review because (a) that's the style I was taught in journalism classes from 10th grade till I dropped out of college or (b) that's how they're done by pros in the print and broadcast media, but I don't find bare-bones reviews that skip those details to be helpful. It's fairly easy for anyone with a keyboard to say "Oh, I think The Dark Knight is the best Batman adaptation ever," but to me that's just a headline or blurb and not a review.

While I don't want Viewpoints to become a clone of the "other site" where we both still work together, I agree that the site will probably need to rank-order stuff if it is going to be taken seriously by readers. I'm no elitist...heck, my choice of products-to-review proves that....but yeah, the readers' trust vis a vis Viewpoints depends a great deal on the quality of the reviews.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

GeorgeChabot — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:35:58 GMT

As you know from working together on another site that does rank order things I agree your movie reviews are very helpful. I would not agree somebody that left out the stuff you generally named (without a dang good reason) would be OK or very helpful for me if I were bent on buying said video.

In the future I am pretty sure VP will have to rank order things to maintain its market niche. If everybody's take on anything is equal - NOT MY OPINION BUT SEEMS TO BE VP POLICY - one bad recommendation will send readers away never to return. I therefore believe there has to be a level of trust generated from the expert reviewers per topic and not imposed by some nebulous power from above. YMMV but I believe this. :>

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:21:26 GMT

I'm still of the opinion that a good review should:

Contain the relevant details of the specific product.
If it's a movie review, some plot summary is necessary, as well as some mention of who's in the movie....(This doesn't mean padding reviews with a cast list, but the cast is worth mentioning in some form in the body of the review)
If it's a book review, same thing but only if it covers the first third of a work of fiction. Non-fiction history books can go a bit farther, but not excessively so
It should be as long - or short - as it needs to be.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:06:55 GMT

GeorgeChabot said…
"Different strokes for different folks, right?"

Why weaken it. You made a solid point and then you defuse it. Why?

Oh, drat. I didn't think I was defusing my point.

Still, there are Viewpoints readers (and writers) who may not feel that the way I review or what I prefer in the reviews I read/rate/comment on is the only way.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

GeorgeChabot — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:59:40 GMT

"Different strokes for different folks, right?"

Why weaken it. You made a solid point and then you defuse it. Why?

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Fardreamer — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:51:19 GMT

vivasuzi said…
Well we will have to disagree. I've read movie reviews of, say The Dark Knight, that didn't say anything about the actual plot/story but only said how they liked the special effects, or enjoyed the acting, whatever. There is no requirements to receive a Helpful vote from me. If I find one or two helpful nuggets, it's helpful. That's why I'm here.
BTW - There's not much to misunderstand, I absolutely Love this site and Hate the other one, pretty much everyone already knows that.

While I understand where you're coming from, I'm the kind of review reader who does look for at least some plot summaries and things of that nature, even if there are other reviews or sources where I could get that data.

Besides, when I studied journalism in high school and college, that's how we were taught to write reviews. Maybe that created a certain bias as to what I find helpful or not in someone else's writing, but it seems to be something I can't easily cast aside.

Different strokes for different folks, right?

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

MikeMaroon — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:39:05 GMT

kid-kansas said…
I will write reviews and leave them in draft mode for sometimes weeks and then go back and read them. I tend to write both long and short but it depends on how I feel at the time, it works for me....;)

I'm with you, I leave reviews in draft mode sometimes, cause I know a little editing can make all the difference. Other times, I write, spell check, read for mistakes, cut a little then post it right there. Just depends.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

kid-kansas — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:22:14 GMT

I will write reviews and leave them in draft mode for sometimes weeks and then go back and read them. I tend to write both long and short but it depends on how I feel at the time, it works for me....;)

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:06:25 GMT

Well we will have to disagree. I've read movie reviews of, say The Dark Knight, that didn't say anything about the actual plot/story but only said how they liked the special effects, or enjoyed the acting, whatever. There is no requirements to receive a Helpful vote from me. If I find one or two helpful nuggets, it's helpful. That's why I'm here.

BTW - There's not much to misunderstand, I absolutely Love this site and Hate the other one, pretty much everyone already knows that.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

GeorgeChabot — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:48:37 GMT

Vivasuzi said:

"Ok so I don't want to go on and on about "that other site" but for sure I like it here better where if someone wants to review a movie without even a plot summary, it can still be helpful."

====================

I dont't think so. At least not in my book. I want to know is it a cowboy movie; a mystery; a drama; a biopic; based on true story, things like that. A plot summary is a minimal hassle and would need to just state this is a cowboy flick starring Clint Eastwood with lots of shoot outs, spills and chills.

Granted Spongebob is hardly shakespeare but you should not be so critical of other sites. People can misunderstand you.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:33:40 GMT

Movies was really just an example actually. Where I've actually seen this is in places like Hotels for example. I know of a few cases where a reviewer was rated down and the comment was "you didn't mention the pool", even though the reviewer didn't even use the pool! Things like that tick me off. On VP, when I review hotels, I review the aspects I used OR things I feel I read enough about to share, sometimes I'll mention things I didn't use just b/c I read about them and might as well include.

The point is, regardless of what you are reviewing, a reviewer should never be expected to go to another site for FAQ that they don't know about for the sole purpose of including them in the review. That's why I took to VP so well!

OH, now that I think of it, I had have some Movie reviews downrated for not saying enough of the FAQ. On one in particular, I said the general plot of the spongebob movie, and said there were a few twists and turns, and someone downrated saying perhaps I could give an example of a twist. First off, why would I want to ruin the twists for any movie, second of all it's Spongebob!

Ok so I don't want to go on and on about "that other site" but for sure I like it here better where if someone wants to review a movie without even a plot summary, it can still be helpful.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

GeorgeChabot — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 01:40:42 GMT

vivasuzi said…
I totally agree elvisdo, that's exactly why I took to this site and abandoned others! I feel like (for example) if I want to review a movie and don't think the actors mattered as much as the other stuff, I won't do anything more than say their names! Sometimes I don't even care to look up the names. Sometimes I just don't think it's important for THAT review. It's nice to know no one is going to come along and say my review is not helpful because I didn't include everything on a checklist of things.

If it is Epinions, there is no way an advisor would make you fulfill a checklist on a movie review. I have nine years there and know what I'm talking about. My movie reviews run all different ways with different focuses. None according to a checklist. My statement above to answer the reporter's questions is just a guideline for any review.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

GeorgeChabot — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 01:38:24 GMT

There is nothing that cannot be better said through judicious editing. This generally makes the piece shorter.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:46:45 GMT

I totally agree elvisdo, that's exactly why I took to this site and abandoned others! I feel like (for example) if I want to review a movie and don't think the actors mattered as much as the other stuff, I won't do anything more than say their names! Sometimes I don't even care to look up the names. Sometimes I just don't think it's important for THAT review. It's nice to know no one is going to come along and say my review is not helpful because I didn't include everything on a checklist of things.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

elvisdo — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:58:47 GMT

I find myself writing shorter reviews without worrying if I missed a lot of details. It definitely allows me to be a bit more playful in how I approach things. I usually try to get the audience engaged with my opening paragraph. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But the bottom line is that it doesn't feel like a chore to write. When that happens, you can really tell by the tone in the review. That's when it becomes uninteresting for me.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:20:08 GMT

CrystaBush said…
Diapers? Well, how much can you really say about them without giving TOO much detail?

I'd want to know details! How many pounds can it hold? How does it handle #1 vs #2? What about when the kid has a stomach ache?

Just kidding! Anyway yes i agree some reviews have no reason to be long. It's when I get to one where there is a lot of useful info to share, sometimes it's hard to know where to draw the line.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

CrystaBush — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:03:59 GMT

I like to read shorter reviews. I like to get to the point. But certain items just require a longer review. For example, electronics.....I want to know details and that requires writing a longer review. Diapers? Well, how much can you really say about them without giving TOO much detail?

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

scorpioeyez — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:22:02 GMT

Generally when I am writing a review, I try to keep myself between 800-1,100 words and it's actually rare that I fall short or over that.

If I do go over that though even after I'm done editing and revising, I generally just leave it in and let the review be a novel. If there was really that much that I felt the need to comment on, than so be it. It just means that it was a particularly engaging item that needs to be talked about more.

*shrugs*

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

PattyTherre — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:37:30 GMT

Definitely more than one review per item will skew the ratings and I don't really think you CAN write two on one item if you wanted to. I hope not anyway. I really believe that all the info that could be possibly given can fit into the amount of space we are allotted. I have not yet ever gone over the limit and some of my top 10's and things are very long. Any more than that would be overkill, IMHO, even on travel destinations and other things that have a lot of info to them.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:05:27 GMT

Well you can't write multiple reviews of one product. Actually that would throw off the ratings. If you wrote three reviews giving the product 5 stars, and someone else wrote 1 review giving it 1 star, your three reviews would make it seem like more people liked the product and it would be unbalanced.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Tator03 — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:51:55 GMT

This is something different. But what about doing two to three reviews on the same thing but let each one have a little thing of tits own. Just let the reader know there is more to come in another review do it like this 1 of 5 or what ever it to be 1of 3 and so on. on the next one put 2 of 3 or 1 of 5. I home you get the pitch of things I am trying to say. I think it would be great so if the reader wanted to now more let them see there is more and if the reader doesnt want to read more They do not have to go to other reviews on the subject.

That gives all readers and righters something to think about.

Hugs to all,

Tator03

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

GeorgeChabot — Tue, 20 May 2008 18:47:34 GMT

I think answering the newspaper reporter questions: WHO WHAT WHEN WHERE WHY and HOW are a good guide. I like to inject a little personality, but I think I do that anyway. Shorter is generally better than longer because you can rewrite and put things in better order and more succinctly, but that takes time and thought. Typically, I suspect, most just jot down their thoughts and leave it at that.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

Jo — Sat, 17 May 2008 19:38:07 GMT

I've had some that went over the limit (I think there is or was a max) so I of course cut it but if it seems that my review is just too long then I will try to read it over and remove anything that isn't necessary or that doesn't really enhance the review. Jo

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

CyndiA — Thu, 15 May 2008 23:11:51 GMT

RudiXeno said…
I have been trying to keep my reviews shorter and more to the point. There are times though that I think it cuts into the personality of the review. I'm still looking for a balance.

Hey Rudi. Keep the personality. I read longer reviews when the writer is engaging and the info is great. You have a very nice online voice. I start reading and don't think about how many words.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

LaurieM — Thu, 15 May 2008 22:24:12 GMT

I used to put too much manufacturer information in my reviews which unnecessarily added length. I have cut down on that now and although my reviews are a bit shorter, I still think I need to start trimming the fat a bit more on some.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

RudiXeno — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:05:57 GMT

I have been trying to keep my reviews shorter and more to the point. There are times though that I think it cuts into the personality of the review. I'm still looking for a balance.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

njchicaa — Tue, 13 May 2008 02:20:55 GMT

I've been cutting things short even when I know I want to say more. VP seems to value the shorter, sweeter reviews so that is how I try to write mine.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Tue, 13 May 2008 00:48:04 GMT

Yeah sometimes when I try to stay short I find that the review doesn't make much sense. I end up having to add sentances in to make more sense out of it.

I guess the most important thing (long or short) is to have good transitions between points. That's why I use bold headers b/c that's an easy transition and makes it so I don't have to try to make all the paragraphs flow together.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

PattyTherre — Tue, 13 May 2008 00:39:28 GMT

Mike, I read "On Writing" and really loved that side of Stephen King. I do go back and cut things out often because I find that I get repetitive unintentionally. Sometimes, writing a shorter review is more challenging than writing a long one. Quality over quantity can be tough! But I am trying to find a good balance between short and sweet and conversational and detailed.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Mon, 12 May 2008 16:43:10 GMT

Mike, that does truly tick me off when I've read reviews stating stuff like "only complete idiots would like this!" especially if it was a movie I really liked! It's one thing to say that I found a movie dumb or boring, but to claim that others who like it are idiots is just wrong.

I do the write - reread - cut thing everytime, but sometimes it still seems long. But every sentance is useful for some products and I only end up trimming the sentances, getting rid of words like "really" or "very". There are times I found that I repeated myself, and I cut that too, but other times every sentance is covering a unique topic and it just gets long! I figure it's helpful to someone who wants to know all the details.

Please note, when I cover a lot of details I am rarely sharing facts that could be found online. Most the details I feel MUST be shared are things I learned about the product/vacation spot that the website didn't tell me.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

MikeMaroon — Mon, 12 May 2008 16:37:16 GMT

That is a great point, especially for me, since I tend to get, uh, wordy. I read a book by Stephen King, "On Writing", and when I'm writing I keep in the back of my mind on of the most important things he said. I'm paraphrasing, but he said when he re-reads something he wrote, I finds he can almost always cut out 10-20% and make it better. I find that is true for me. I just start writing. When I get to the end, I go back and read it again. I ALWAYS cut something out and re-order stuff.

I want to make it tight as I can while being careful not to cut stuff that leaves the other stuff hanging. That's one of my biggest fears, saying something in a review the will make sense only to me. It can be a fine line, saying what needs to be said and adhering to the "brevity" rule.

Piggybacking on ChrisJarmick's post, I never try and convince someone my opinion is correct. I just lay it out there and let them decide. Once I've read a review by someone implying if I don't agree with them I'm an idiot, I never, ever read anything by that reviewer again. I hate arrogance. Hate it. My opinion is better than no one's. I'm just a dude writing what I think and hoping someone reads it.

Then I go back and check for typos. And usually miss some!

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

ChrisJarmick — Mon, 12 May 2008 14:39:21 GMT

Mostly movie reviews is what I write.

I also tend to give a summation of my opinion within the first two paragraphs of my review. Then I play around a bit with both structure and tone of the review to make is interesting to me and so the reader hopefully experiences something a little different than a run of the mill movie review.

Eventually I will go into the movie's plot but I rarely rush into the details because I don't want to spoil things for readers. So... readers can bow out of my reviews if they don't want to know much about the movie or they can keep reading.

If they keep reading loyal readers know I will never SPOIL an important plot point or reveal a surprise UNLESS I indicate SPOILER ... SPOILER ALERT.

I might discuss a particularly compelling or particularly awful scene in the movie. I will mention acting and directing and quite often something about the writing of the script and probably the look of the film.

I may mention other films in the same genre or that have similar plots or have in common writers, directors, stars.

Then I may mention DVD special features.

I'll probably sum things up about my opinion of the film at the end.

These reviews range from fairly long to what some would consider very long.

Every once in a while I will write a extremely long detailed special analysis of a film, perhaps because I have quite a bit of knowledge about the film or feel I bring some insight to the table that some people will enjoy reading about.

I have done very short capsule reviews. They actually take more time than you think to write. I give a very brief rundown of basic plot (as in a couple of lines) mention my over-all impressions, one or two major pros and cons and that's it... done. However....I am rarely happy or feel this is a fair way to review a film.

Sometimes I will do lists.... These include short capsule to medium length reviews of films I mention. They take a very very long time to write since they represent 5 to 10 movies or more. If I have already written a longer review of the movie, I may capsulize the review and do a link in the list review.

Trying to hard to convince someone about your opinion or being overly repititive will add length and make the review feel much too long. These are mistakes everyone has probably made and may make again. Finding the right balance, playing with tone and descriptive sentences is what keeps things interesting for me.

Keep writing.

Read someone you have never read before.... TODAY.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

CyndiA — Mon, 12 May 2008 13:36:37 GMT

I tend to write short. In school, if the assignment was 15-20 pages, I'd come in with 13. I could have padded but didn't. The teachers never had a prob with it. The consensus was that I write tight.

Here I write what I have to say and hit publish. Some are longer and some shorter. I never worry much about length.

Then I go back and see all the typos (-: Bummer. Everything looks just dandy until it's up and live.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Mon, 12 May 2008 03:04:58 GMT

Great, that sounds like my thoughts exactly. If I feel like the info is helpful, I break it into categories with headings so ppl can skip around. For this particular review, I had a lot I wanted to say because there was a lot of information that the website didn't really tell me and I did a TON of research and asked TONS of questions on travel boards for help, so I feel like I might save the reader some time by writing everything up I wanted to :)

I could easily cover more! I have more in my head right now, but if the reader wants to know more, they can always ask me :) So I guess I decided my limit by not discussing those things and I shouldn't cut out anything else.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

PattyTherre — Mon, 12 May 2008 02:36:50 GMT

I write my review then go back and see if I duplicated any info or if I said things that aren't necessary. I often give a little history of how I came upon the product or service and I won't cut that even if it means going longer.

I try to write tight but when I cut things out JUST because I don't want to go long, I feel I short changed the reader. I guess it's a matter of saying what you want to say in as many words as you need to say it.

The best thing I have found to do is to recap my opinion at the top of the review in case people want to just get the gist of things. Then I feel I can go into a bit more detail. I break up the review into pieces so people can skip what they don't care to read. I leave out things that they can get on the websites like ingredients (unless they are for vitamins or nutrition items), packaging, and other things that aren't necessary. I have written long reviews and felt anything less would not do the product/service/experience justice.

If you have a lot you WANT to say, do you leave it or cut it down?

vivasuzi — Mon, 12 May 2008 02:00:28 GMT

I've always been a fan of short and sweet, and yet sometimes I have a lot I want to say! I just wrote a review of my vacation resort and I seriously left out like 30 things I wanted to say, yet it is still long! I decided to leave it because I feel the information is helpful for someone who really wants to know what the resort is like rather than just getting the "it was fun".

What do you do in these situations? I'm not talking about filler or putting in more than you really wanted to. But when you feel like you have a lot you want to share and a lot that you think is all helpful, do you write it all in or cut some out?