Education Discussions

I can tell you that english is a major problem in high school education.  I went back to college at age 52.  I had been out of school since 1975.  I did graduate but I needed some refresher courses in math and english.  You would not believe the high school grads in my classes that dont know what a verb or how to write a proper paragraph or a proper sentence.  I was shocked.  Needless to say I don't know what they are doing in the schools.  I know there was a law passed that no child is to be left behind.  This could be the reason a lot of kids are being passed even though they do not meet the requirements of 12th grade education and are passed anyway.

Good for you for standing up and fighting for your childs education.

If more parents were like you non of our children would be uneducated when they graduated.  Education is everything in the job, college and the outside world.

In one way I agree. I think "social promotion" is too common, when children get promoted to stay with their peers when they haven't shown that they can do the class work.

In other ways, kids are doing some amazing things with robots and videos!

I don't agree that "kids are paying off teachers for A's" - I hope it's not that bad! But teachers that give more As are perceived as better teachers and probably get higher raises, which encourages them to give more As.

I don't have any kids in school, so I'll sit out the rest of this discussion. But I hear your frustration, jlowe308. I hope someone can give you some answers.

I do.  100% percent.  Completely. With all of my being.

I'm one of the "mean" teachers that expects students to work for their grades... the parents and students hate me, but when they pass my class it means they have actually LEARNED something. 

I have had parents and students tell me "I don't care what they (I) learn, I just want to see an A on the report card."  That kind of thinking just boggles my mind. 

I refuse to lower my standards and have seen each year that I've taught that students who care about their future can and WILL put forth the extra effort required to be successful in my class.  Honestly, it shouldn't even be "extra" effort but so few other teachers push or challenge them, so they aren't quite sure how to take notes or study, despite the fact that they are in HIGH SCHOOL. 

I totally agree,Here in NC English is not even taught until high school.This is a big problem.When  my youngest daughter was in elementary school her teacher taught her students anyways but my other children had problems and I had to really work with them.There spelling was horrible but their teachers never cared because they were not required to euducate them about proper english or spelling so even though I have been out of school for years I done it myself.I have some mishaps here and there but I guess I was fortunate because I was really good at english in school and was top journlist my freshman year so I have a little bit of skill when I need it and I cn spell pretty good. I agree we need to start earlier on because after children are accustom to writing the same way for years it is a little to late.Good teachers who make kids work are great and I really commend you because working in the public school system is hard enough I just wish there was more like you.

I think we tend to put on the rose-colored glasses when we remember our school years. I joined the Army less than a year out of high school and plenty of kids my age had trouble reading. At least one was stone illiterate, although I don't know that he graduated from high school.

A few years later, I worked for a manager who was a couple years younger than me (I was about 25). At best, he could read headlines in the newspaper, but tackling an article was too much. When I worked at IBM in the 1980s, a good friend and co-worker could write at perhaps the fifth-grade level... and he was a college graduate! I am not exaggerating when I say that writing a correct eight-word sentence was difficult for him. He was about my age... maybe a couple years younger.

I didn't seek out these people, I just stumbled across them. And I lived in relatively affluent areas with good education systems. (At IBM, the guy lived in and grew up in Westchester County, NY, one of the wealthiest counties in the country.) So I tend to think that it is the individual, not the school system. I have to say that I was shocked that a college graduate was so poorly skilled at writing, but I'll give him credit for working on it and improving himself.

Finally, anyone who watches Jay Leno (both on the Tonight Show and his 10PM show) knows the idiots he gets for his "Jaywalking" segments. Some of these people identify themselves as teachers and can't answer the most rudimentary questions.

I don't think this is a case of "it used to be so much better." I think that a lot of people do the minimum necessary to get through school and survive. It has always been that way and always will be.

--Bob

Loved school and just think the state has changed alot and it is gonna hurt the kids in the long run.

jlowe308 said…

Loved school and just think the state has changed alot and it is gonna hurt the kids in the long run.

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We can thank Bush's "No Child Left Behind" bill for that. We are now telling every student that they have a shot at college... and schools must have all students 100% proficient by 2014 in Language Arts and Math. The joke is that the proficiency exam is up to each state to develop. Mississippi was 100% proficient the 1st year while NJ is still struggling 8 or 9 years later. It isn't that our students don't have the ability... Mississippi just developed a very easy standardized test that all of their students could pass. They certainly aren't doing their pupils any favors but it sure does ensure that they continue to get state and federal aid.

njchicaa said…

jlowe308 said…

Loved school and just think the state has changed alot and it is gonna hurt the kids in the long run.

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We can thank Bush's "No Child Left Behind" bill for that. We are now telling every student that they have a shot at college... and schools must have all students 100% proficient by 2014 in Language Arts and Math. The joke is that the proficiency exam is up to each state to develop. Mississippi was 100% proficient the 1st year while NJ is still struggling 8 or 9 years later. It isn't that our students don't have the ability... Mississippi just developed a very easy standardized test that all of their students could pass. They certainly aren't doing their pupils any favors but it sure does ensure that they continue to get state and federal aid.

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Some of this was already the case but NCLB intensified the fact that schools are very grade and test drvien.  Even where I work in preschool I hear teachers talk about testing the children for what they know.  It's rare to have teachers like NJchiccaa anymore who actually want their students to learn and not just pass a test.  Many times parents don't get what teachers are trying to do and in some cases teachers have no suport for really teaching and not just testing.

Here in Michigan the "standardized" test is a joke.  (there are actually 2 here but they are both state tests).  When you can change the passing line every year to suite your needs it's not a stadardized test.

Schools find ways around alot of stuff too.I know I see it.The high school my kids go to dont even have books that the kids can vring home.They will never admit to it but there staff will and has.So the kids take notes and get printed papers once in awhile.Teachers there let the kids grade the papers and their school didnt excel last year at all and everyone hides behind lies.If a kid is in the 11th grade and cannot read but graduates because he is an athlete thats pathedic and someone made it possible.

I saw my husband's high school transcript when he applied to community college. I was horrified! How did they let him graduate with those grades? Requiring only 2 years of English? Varsity swimming for credit? he graduated in 1992 in Utah! I still can't get a straight answer as to what he actually did from the time he was dropped off from school until swim practice.

In RI, 4 years of English were required. If you even wanted a shot at state college, you needed 2yrs foreign language, 3yrs history, 3 yrs science at least one lab, and at least 1/2 credit in art, it looked bad even if you failed PE!

Even when academic classes were not required by my high school, they were required by my father with a B- average considered horrible.. It was actually kind of fun to take East Asian History and RI State history as electives, even if they weren't easy. There's no way I could have gotten away with the crap my husband did. As a matter of fact, I failed Algebra I, and it ruined my curriculum. I was conditionally granted admission to my state college. During the summer I had to take and pass Algebra 2 at the community college. That was a pretty easy college to get into.

Actually, if I remember correctly, I am wrong about Mississippi, I believe it was Arkansas instead.  Still, the fact remains that the proficiency level is up to each state to determine... and funding is linked to scores.

Seems we are all doomed to teach "to the test". 

njchicaa said…

and funding is linked to scores.

Seems we are all doomed to teach "to the test". 

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As long as funding is on the line with these tests... unfortunately yes.  It sounds like you at least make your students learn something and not just how to take a test though.  Some focus soooo much on the test that they forget they can actually teach the children something and still have them pass the test.

Mostly I think it is the effort, or lack of by the students and not necessarily the teachers.  Having said that, there are some teachers out there who should be doing something else for a living.  AND as long as teachers unions refuse to allow teachers to be held accountable, it will go on.  We've cut money from eduction until the teacher/student ratio is outrageous.

I graduated high school in 1975.  I don't think it was better or worse than it is now.  I think attitudes are a lot different, that's for sure.  Helicopter parents, uber-competative parents/students and just wrong headed motivations lead to student burn out, teacher frustration and a focus on everything BUT 'readin', writin' and rithmetic'

Some of both.Teachers have to go by whatever the state tells them but then again teachers shouldnt be letting students grade papers eaither.What teacher takes fifty bucks for an A?So much for the oath to providing good education.Come to our high school and you will see what I mean.He can a teacher be sure of ones accomplishments or mastery if the kids grade the papaers and you know they are gonna give people they know what grades that they want too.You can t go from a 60 average for a year and then be promoted.Whats wrong with that picture.I know the elementary school where my kids use to go didnt make the grade in reading one year so the next year students were alowed to take their books to test so they could look up their answers so the school could make a better quota.Kids od have to do their part as well.I firmly believe in that but at the same time children need books and the teachers to take home the work and grade it.I mean you did ant to be an educator right?My child or no other child has a degree giving them the authority so how can you be so sure the grades are correct.That may have something to do with low test scores.In my personal oppinion kids cant learn or study form book they dont have.

I do believe they are letting children graduate without putting in all the work. My girls worked hard in school to get the grades they did and reaped the benefits of it by graduating. However, I do know of a child that played on the football team and when they instituted a rule that if they were not passing their classes, they could not play sports, this child was taken off the team. This child stopped coming to school, started going to alternative school ten hours per week, instead of the regular hours of the rest of the students and still graduated with the class. He did not even show up to the ceremony to get his diploma. I felt it was wrong for him to not do the work, choose to go less hours and still achieve what the ones who worked hard did. He may not have the gpa, but he graduated.

JLOWE SAID:  My boys are in high school.One of my sons done well and the other one needed some EC services and really didnt get them and so his grades were horrible all year but some how he passed.Now I know what your thinking why am I complaining? I am complaining because other kids are paying off teachers for A's and there letting people pass that shouldnt.I just think people should earn their education because if we push children through then what kind fo future lies instore for them later on in college or on a job.High Schools really have to start caring.I had to fight this year to get my son in a CA lab but finally after a year we got there.He is in the 10th grade.Who else thinks schools need to really care about our childrens future?

 

Spokaneman Responded With:

It's very important that you report it to the district that you know which students paid which teachers so it doesn't happen again.  If you need help finding out who you need to contact, feel free to contact me offline.  But it's very important that you present these facts to the district since you have them.

There is one that that I have been frustrated with in regards to people learning English in general, and that is that not enough people are forced to learn what the word "alot" actually means.  That and many people don't learn the differences between "there", "their", and "they're".

MikeMaroon said…

Mostly I think it is the effort, or lack of by the students and not necessarily the teachers.  Having said that, there are some teachers out there who should be doing something else for a living.  AND as long as teachers unions refuse to allow teachers to be held accountable, it will go on.  We've cut money from eduction until the teacher/student ratio is outrageous.

 

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You nailed one point, in that a lot of students don't care.  Add into it that a lot of parents don't care, and the problem gets compounded.  People outside of that see it happen, and then more people become problems.  It is a cascading effect that can only be helped by parents stepping in and making sure that first their children care, and that second, the teachers are held accountable.

Hmmm, on one hand I believe some kids skate through and graduate without having the ability to even read or write properly and on the other hand, I see what the kids have to do in school and it's HARD! Some of the stuff my kids had to learn was college level for me and I couldn't even help them because it was *cringe* math and I never was strong in match or science.

There are certain tests and such that the kids have to pass and schools are really caught up in those grades and making the THE grade. Sometimes it is to the point where they don't even care about anything BUT that the kids pass these tests and that the school are rated highly.

Having said that, I always appreciated the mean teachers who demanded that the kids actually did the work. I also appreciated the understanding ones who helped my kids to get motivated and gave them extra help when it was needed. Parents need to work with the school, the teachers, and their kids. They can't just send the kids off to school and forget about it. I think the blame for kids graduating not even knowing how to write or read well is on everyone, including the kids themselves.

I know our schools want the kids out and rarely fail a 12th grade student (although they DO hold them back for summer school and graduate them in August). Some kids want to learn, some don't. I don't know if anyone can MAKE a kid put forth effort and care.

PattyTherre said…

I know our schools want the kids out and rarely fail a 12th grade student (although they DO hold them back for summer school and graduate them in August). Some kids want to learn, some don't. I don't know if anyone can MAKE a kid put forth effort and care.

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Just to add to this thought though... if there were less emphasis on teaching to the tests and more on the individual kids learning would that make a difference in whether or not the student puts in the effort?  We have some huge drop out rates around here and I have a feeling a lot of it is due to the students not being challenged.

About 10 years ago I started hearing about high schools that had 22 valedictorians at graduation and something like 50% graduating with honors. It's the ''everybody gets a trophy" mindset. I think the underlying problem is a reluctance to acknowledge that some students are simply better students than others and deserve better grades.

Some students do alot better than others but teachers also have to acknowledge that they are hired to do a job which doe snot require cash for A's and student substsitues.Maybe we should start putting the kids on pay roll that might change things.

jlowe308 said…

Some students do alot better than others but teachers also have to acknowledge that they are hired to do a job which doe snot require cash for A's and student substsitues.

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(doe snot... he he... I'm not the only one who mis-types things)

I think we often turn to teachers, to politicians, to anyone else who may offer the slightest glimmer of hope, to do something that we won't take responsibility for ourselves.

From personal experience, a lady I know has a son who is doing poorly in high school, and she blames the teachers and would be ok with him getting undeserved good grades. She does a lot of his homework for him just to get it done (sure, it's in his writing, but she dictates the answers to him).

She was complaining about getting her pool ready for winter, and I suggested that her son be given that chore. (I don't have a pool, but isn't that something a teenager could do?) She reacted like I said the impossible and answered, "it's easier if I do it myself."

I'm just giving that example to show that we can't always blame the teachers when kids grow up in a dysfunctional environment. (And most would say he's not in a dysfunctional environment, but what would you call it? Getting a pool and other benefits without working or performing for it?) BTW, this is a normal teenager with no diagnosed learning disabilities. The boy next door.

If a teacher has a classroom full of students, how can they determine if a student really needs help or is just coasting? What if a student like the above is taking up all her time, when a student who would benefit from a little extra help gets short-changed? We wouldn't need child study teams if parents just stepped up and, well, parented.

I agree.

jlowe308 said…

I agree.

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JLowe, just wondering if you had any luck reporting these crimes over the weekend or today.

jlowe308 said…

Some students do alot better than others but teachers also have to acknowledge that they are hired to do a job which doe snot require cash for A's and student substsitues.Maybe we should start putting the kids on pay roll that might change things.

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Not sure I agree with your statement that kids should be paid.  Maybe if it is scholarship based, and they receive it when they graduate.  I don't think that paying students is the answer when so much is already cut from budgets though.

Thanks

jlowe308 said…

Thanks

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Does this mean you aren't interested in reporting people you know broke the law?  That simply adds to the problems already within the system; parents not really caring.

Reading all your comments and it is very interesting!  I did not go to public school and honestly don't even know what "the test" is that you are all talking about.  We took standardized test but we never sat down to learn the test, we just took them. Granted I thought the tests were pretty easy and our school usually did well, but most of the stuff on the test we had never directly sat down to learn.

Are these the same tests you are talking about?  Or do public school students have to take something extra?

I know a lot of teachers and most are like NJ, they really want to teach and help the kids grow, and they are all relatively new teachers.  The problem is, they are saying all the time the trouble they have with their principal, or the new rules, etc etc.  I can easily see why some teachers may just "give in" and start "teaching the test" as you guys say, and start just passing students.  It seems like teachers have a lot of pressures from all ends and it is no longer just about teaching the kids but instead now they have to please the parents, the district, the principal, the state, and the country!

Teachers shouldn't have to fight in order to teach.  Obama said (i think) that in the future it should be a requirement that kids go to college.  So now what?  Will we have doctors and lawyers that just barely scraped by?  I know it is great to encourage more and more kids to go to college, but at what cost?  The first priority should be about teaching the kids whatever they can soak up, rather than just saying they all need to get a degree.

The internet has a lot to do with this English problem that you mention.  I did not get the net until 1997 so I must have learned how to write before the net had a chance to teach me wrong.  However, many teens now grow up online, texting and writing short versions of every word.  I do write differently online and often use sentences that are incomplete - but I know better when it comes to professional things.  However, I can see how a kid growing up online could learn the wrong way and not be bothered learning the correct way.  That's why I hope to keep my kids out of all this social networking stuff for as long as I can!  

BTW - Spell check has totally killed my spelling skills.  Why bother spelling anything correctly when this little red line tells me what I spelled wrong?